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THE "UDT" KNIFE...fact or fantasy?


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KRIS FORD
  • 1 year later...

That doesn't quite fit the Weske knives sold as UDT knives. The Ka-bar is not peened, the guard is still bent, and the blade is not in the white or chromed. There is a Weske UDT knife on ebay right now, asking price is $879 or there about. They come up regularly for prices from $175 to $900. I have one I paid $30 for at an estate sale; probably purchased after WW2 as a knife to use and to save the Veteran's WW2 carried knife (USN Mk2).

Not really unusual at this point, thanks to Frank Trzaska's work.

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Charlie Flick

Here is a pic of the Mark 2 style knife mentioned by Kris Ford above which is currently listed on Ebay. The smooth handle seems to be the only feature that gives the seller the chance to claim this one to be a so-called "UDT knife".

 

Weske UDT Knife on Ebay.JPG

 

This auction is a good example of the phenomenon wherein bad information never seems to die. As pointed out years ago in this thread, and elsewhere on our Forum, the misinformation that these blades were somehow associated with Navy UDT divers came from legendary knife whiz M.H. Cole. He repeated in his famous US Knives book a story he had heard which was later disproven by our member Frank Trzaska in a great piece of detective work. It was a simple mistake but it took on a life of its own and came to be repeated by other respected authors and collectors.

 

In this auction, the seller references one of collector/author Mike Silvey's books as providing evidence that these blades were UDT knives. The seller said: "This particular "MK2 conversion" UDT type is illustrated on page 27 of KNIVES OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY OF WWII book by Michael W. Silvey - a well established expert and the author of a number of books on the subject of the US military edged weapons." Thus, the mistake gets repeated again and some unknowing collector gets burned. (I attribute no ill motives to the seller here but a little homework would have established the true facts on these blades.)

 

This is a mighty old thread, but given that the UDT myth seems so hard to kill it seems worthwhile to bring the subject back up now and again.

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

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  • 1 month later...
Doctorofwar

The late, great M.H. Cole paved the way with collector research and provided a lot of information but made many honest mistakes that people are still repeating to this day. I see references to errors in his books in ads and the sellers may not even be aware they are citing inaccurate info.

 

Examples include:

the aforementioned UDT KA-BAR myth (which Homer M Brett, and Kevin Dockery also repeat in their books),

 

the SWI USMC machetes,

 

Utica marked 1219c2s being erroneously refereed to as Korean war contract.

 

Frank Trzaska has done phenomenal scholarly work setting some of this straight as well as uncovering variations of the 1219c2 pattern knife not previously cataloged by Cole, Silvey or Brett.

Its just another case of the longer something gets repeated the more believable it becomes.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Doctorofwar

A few years ago I was outbid in an auction for a so called plated UDT KA-BAR that may have actually had a UDT connection. It was one the aforementioned chromed post war put togethers (unfullered, smooth handle, offset guard in a Mk2 plastic sheath) that was engraved as a presentation piece to a Sailor assigned to the UDT to commemorate his tour in Vietnam. Could have been a fantasy piece, but it was a handsome knife, looked right and could have been researched further as his name, rank, unit, and tour dates were on the blade. I often think that knife could have been the only one of these ka-bar variants you could correctly call a UDT one!

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  • 2 years later...

The age and longevity of this thread indicates that many would like a definitive example of a WW2 UDT knife. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer as to what model knife was USGI or otherwise preferred. Just like other specialized units of WW2, the Navy UDT’s, the Marine Raiders, the FSSF, and others tried out a lot of different knives, many which have accumulated significant valuations over the years. 

 

Following problems with the Coral Reef at Tarawa, the U.S. Marines were adamant that their sister service, the U.S. Navy, must start shouldering more of the burden of the amphibious assault from the ship to the high water mark of the landing beach. The Marines literally demanded that the Navy form a more robust UDT capability. As a result of these lessons learned, the Army and the Navy decided to train “Scouts and Raiders” to accomplish such tasks. On a point of principle, the Marines formed their own Raiders, adopting a wide array of knives including the Camillus Raider Stiletto and the MK2. Both of these knives were designed for Marines, by Marines. In the end, the MK2 improved upon the MK1 and surpassed all others in the Marine quiver. Generically, this knife design became known as the “Ka-Bar”, which was actually the name of the Union Cutlery model of the MK2 (Kill-A-BAR). The Marine Raiders have been called the first units ever assembled specifically for Special Operations in the U.S. military and were often involved in the subsequent training of other specialized units such as the UDT’s and OSS Maritime Units.

 

Early on, both Marines and Sailors carried MK2 Knives from various makers inscribed with USN on the ricasso of the blade. Eventually, Marines received special USMC marked knives. Camillus and Union Cutlery were major manufacturers of the MK2. Robeson made a smaller number of USN and USMC MK2 knives, consequently, these knives are now among the most highly sought after MK2’s. USMC marked Robeson SurEdge knives with red spacers can fetch upwards of $500. The USN marked versions of this same Robeson model bring about half that.
 

However, I believe the USN Robeson SurEdge knives with red spacers are under-valued. First of all, it is the exact same knife as the Marine version except for the USN on the blade. Next, as mentioned earlier, both Marines and Navy Corpsmen carried Robeson USN marked knives until USMC marked blades became readily available. Finally, the ongoing debate about the “Fantasy UDT Knife” always leads back to some version of the MK2 pattern knives. This is most evident in a posting by the National UDT/Seal Museum in Ft. Pierce Florida:


United States Navy Ka Bar Knife -- used by Ken Reynolds, NCDU 42, during the invasion of Omaha Beach- June 6, 1944. NCDU’s at Omaha Beach were issued Ka-Bar knives to cut Detonation Cord and fouled lines.

 

https://navysealmuseum.pastperfectonline.com/webobject/43A915BD-5C89-42D4-B9FA-192104942030

 

image.jpeg.d3ac8c45ebb02bc9ace71b3262dccd4c.jpeg

 

This is proof positive that NCDTs, which are the natural forerunners of the U.S. Navy SEALs, used MK2 styles knives as they readied the landing beaches at places like Omaha Beach in the Atlantic Theatre and like Kwajalein in the South Pacific. A closer look at the above museum piece reveals many clues as to the exact make and model of at least one genuine “WW2 UDT knife”.

 

The first thing that I noticed in the museum picture was the fact that it is called a “Ka-Bar” but exhibits characteristics more typical of a Robeson SurEdge MK2. The shape of the pommel nut screams early Robeson. The leather handle washers are slightly tapered like a Robeson. The hand guard is curved like a Robeson. There is a distinct red spacer between the handle and the guard, which is more common in the early Robeson. The sheath is a USN embossed, stitched leather Boyt 43, which was issued along with most early Robeson USN MK2 knives.
 

However, perhaps most telling is the subdued silhouette of the Robeson clip point and false edge, which has distinctly less of an upsweep than most Union Cutlery Ka-Bar knives of the same period. Without seeing the knife in person or through a higher resolution photo, one would be forgiven for believing the UDT knife at Fort Pierce UDT museum is in fact a Robeson USN knife with a red spacer. Even if the knife proves to be an early Union Ka-Bar or other named model, then the notion that the MK 2 is the original UDT knife is confirmed. In either case, the first UDT knife may have been under our noses the whole time. 
 

 

 

 

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manayunkman

When I lived in Harrisburg, Pa I knew a WW2 Frogman (he lived off Progress Ave near Walnut st) who mapped out obstacles on Iwo Jima.

 

He still had his knife mask and fins amongst other things.

 

His knife had an aluminum handle and looked like no other knife I had seen.

 

If i remember correctly i could not find it in Coles book.

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digi-shots

I’m confused..?     “…from lessons learned and problems at Tarawa (November 1943) Marines demanded Navy form a more robust UDT capability… and Army and Navy decided to train “Scouts and Raider”s to accomplish such tasks..”


I thought the Scouts and Raiders participated in Operation Torch (November 1942) and full year before Tarawa. The Scouts and Raiders started training in August 1942 (Little Creek, Virginia) and participated in North Africa and Sicily operations early in the war. 
 

As far as an official knife, I think many of these veterans used a combination of various knives.  I have a USN mk1 named to a veteran of both ETO (North Africa and Sicily) and PTO (UDT2, UDT4 - 5 campaigns).

 

 

 

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True, the Army/Navy Scouts and Raiders existed prior to Tarawa, but that landing was an eye-opener that accelerated the demand for these teams and that is when they truely came into their own. https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/navy-frogmen-wwii-underwater-recon/

The Marines absolutely clamored for more frogmen to support their landings as they honed their amphibious strategies. This resulted in doctrinal changes in the CATF/ CLF relationship that were also applied during Operation Overlord. My point is that it is likely that the UDT’s used what was available to them such as Union Ka-Bar, Camillus, and Robeson MK2’s, as well as any other knife they desired to get the job done. We certainly know from the existing records that MK-2 “Ka-Bars” were issued to NCDU teams involved at Normandy. No other government-issued knife is so well documented to have been used by UDT’s.

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digi-shots

Here are a couple of photos I took at the Ft. Pierce Museum a few years ago. Sorry, the first shows primarily guns but you can see knives to the left.

 

 

F1F7FEA0-DB87-4B81-9915-D001D7790B68.jpeg

89DF00C1-7B15-46D1-9ADD-B91929D4ACBB.jpeg

E6B805C2-DB11-4926-BFF2-67057A9D769D.jpeg

540FC2B8-039D-4400-8814-FBF28BA23AF1.jpeg

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“Betio (Tarawa) showed the critical need for underwater swimmers who could stealthily assess and report reef, beach, and surf conditions to the task force before the landing. This concept, first envisioned by amphibious warfare prophet Major Earl "Pete" Ellis in the 1920s, came quickly to fruition. Admiral Turner had a fledgling Underwater Demolition Team on hand for the Marshalls”.

 

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/npswapa/extcontent/usmc/pcn-190-003120-00/sec8.htm

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“One of the men tasked with defeating the German beach obstacles ahead of the invasion that misty morning was 18-year-old Naval Combat Demolition Unit (NCDU) Seaman 2nd Class, Ken Reynolds. He had never even kissed a girl, but he was ready to face whatever fate awaited him on Omaha Beach the pre-dawn morning of June 6th, 1944. Ken and his fellow demolitionists had volunteered for the suicide mission of wiring the German defenses with explosives ahead of the Allied landing. The work had to be done at low tide when the armaments would be revealed. But this also made these guys easy shots for German guns perched in pillboxes on the cliffs above the beaches…Fortunately, history was in good hands. Ken and the rest of the NCDUs were forefathers to today’s Navy SEALs. Failure was not an option. Yet, even if they succeeded, everything would still be stacked against these men. Apparently, military commanders did not expect any of them to survive the demolition operation. So, these brave souls were generally only given a small canteen of water. Classic Ka-Bar knives to cut wire for their munitions. And enough explosives needed to blow open their assigned lanes.”

 

https://www.rmpbs.org/blogs/rocky-mountain-pbs/remembering-dday/

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“Probably the most influential World War II unit that would ultimately impact the capabilities of the UDTs, and subsequently the SEAL Teams, was a joint-service component of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). Many of its capabilities were later adopted by the postwar UDTs, and many of the same capabilities can still be found in today’s SEAL Teams.

On Jan. 20, 1943, a Maritime Section was established within the Special Operations Branch of OSS, with responsibility for planning covert infiltration operations from the sea. On June 10, 1943, the Special Operations Branch was reorganized as the Maritime Unit (MU), with branch status. Its responsibilities included planning and coordinating the clandestine infiltration of agents, supplying resistance groups, engaging in maritime sabotage, and developing special equipment for operations from the sea. OSS MU pioneered U.S. capabilities in maritime sabotage through use of special-boat infiltration techniques and tactical combat diving using flexible swim fins and facemasks, closed-circuit diving equipment, submersible vehicles, and limpet mines. These capabilities were adopted by the UDTs in 1947, and became hallmarks of SEAL Team capabilities lasting through the modern day”. 
 

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/origins-and-evolution-of-u-s-navy-seal-teams-1942-1962/

 

The OSS Maritime Unit trained with Marine Raiders at Camp Pendleton and we’re equipped with Marine gear as the next discussion points out.

 

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More evidence:

 

“World War II Marine Raiders played a large role in the success of World War II, on and off the battlefields. With the establishment of the Office of Strategic Services came the creation of the OSS Special Maritime Unit Operational Swimmers, also known as the country’s “first frogmen.” The Raiders’ facilities and training methods became the foundation of the operatives’ training and preparation for the war. The guest speaker who would lecture on the history of the OSS…was the last living OSS Special Maritime Unit operative, Henry “Hank” Weldon. 

In 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt reorganized the Office of the Coordinator of Information into the Office of Strategic Services, after U.S. entry into World War II. OSS founder Maj. Gen. William J. Donovan, a World War I hero and Wall Street lawyer, restructured the organization to similarly match the British Special Operations Executive and Secret Intelligence Service operations. 

“The intent was to create an elite agency with units created for conducting guerrilla warfare as well as collecting and sabotaging intelligence behind enemy lines,” said Simmel, an OSS Maritime Unit descendant and historical expert of World War II special operations forces.

One of the many units created were the frogmen. These men received an extraordinary waterman-operative skillset to use during World War II operations. The men who made it into the unit were the first swimmers sent to attend the Marine Raider Training Course at Camp Pendleton in the fall and winter of 1943-1944. These men were trained in both Marine Raider skills and underwater demolition techniques.

The purpose for both training courses was to prepare the operatives for reconnaissance, underwater demolition, infiltration and exfiltration by sea and intelligence gathering. Though equipment, tactics and techniques have changed over the last 70 years, today’s Raiders and the OSS frogmen emphasize the same skillsets in training


“Weldon was ordered to report to Camp Pendleton. That’s how he joined the OSS. “We came out to camp Pendleton, ended up at the greater battalion camp on the north end of Camp Pendleton, in Capistrano,” he recalled.

They issued Marine gear for all of us; we didn’t know if we were Marines, Navy or what. Two days after reporting for duty they took us down to Doheny beach. There was a yacht club there, we were to swim around the pier and back in.

“This was about 5 o’clock in the evening and the surf was running around twenty foot breakers. I had never been in the ocean before. A couple of guys next to me said come on, we’ll show you how to do it, just put your feet down, push off under the waves and start swimming. When we got back to the beach, they had a small bonfire going, handed us each a couple of bottles of brandy and said if you need more to get warm come back. That was my introduction into the office of Strategic Services (OSS).”

The OSS was formed from volunteers from the Coast Guard, Army, Navy and Marines. Weldon and his fellows had more training at the Marine Raider Battalion at San Clemente and around Camp Pendleton over to Catalina Island where we did small training exercises with the harbor and airstrip.

 

British special operators also participated in the frogman training pipeline, developing their skills under the tutelage of Raider instructors. Along with attaining new training, British and U.S. forces exchanged information on warfare tactics, technology and logistical concepts to use against German forces. The training consisted mainly of techniques needed for infiltration by sea.

Instructors for this course consisted of World War II Raider officers and enlisted personnel, who trained the frogmen in mock attacks designed to test harbor defenses. In one exercise scenario, combat swimmers were tasked with successfully breaching America’s maritime harbor defenses.

 

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/251345/last-living-wwii-oss-maritime-frogman-relives-history

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WWII UNDERWATER DEMOLITION TEAMS

(1943-1945)

Underwater Demolition Teams were the answer found during World War II to the problem which led to heavy Marine Corps losses in the invasion of Tarawa in the Pacific in 1943, and which faced the Allied Expeditionary Force before the invasion of Normandy in 1944.

The waves of landing craft carrying troops of the famous Marine Second Division onto the beaches of Tarawa, went aground on a submerged coral reef which had not been revealed by aerial reconnaissance photos about a mile and a half from the beach, thus forcing the troops to wade the long stretch in hip deep water under withering Japanese fire. Losses were thus tragically high before the landing force was even afoot on the Island. It was painfully apparent to staff planners of all services that the success of future amphibious invasion of Japanese held territory would be in jeopardy if there was to be no way of knowing what obstacles, both natural and man-made, lay to seaward of the beach, and if there were no way of clearing such obstacles.

In the meantime the plans were nearing completion for the invasion of the German held Normandy coast by the Allied Expeditionary Force. It was evident that the Germans' initial line of resistance would be mines and underwater obstacles designed to stop the invasion craft. Navy planners therefore conceived the Combat Demolition Units, which would go in with the first wave at Normandy and supplement the Army beach sappers who were faced with the problems of clearing gaps through barbed wire, walls and tank traps.

The first personnel were garnered from the CB's, the Navy Construction Battalion Men, and from the early Navy/Marine Scout and Raider Volunteers who were rugged and capable physically and who had previous swimming experience. They were collected together at Fort Pierce, Florida, in the early summer of 1943. An intensive physical training program was devised, apparently based on the theory that a man is capable of about 10 times as much physical output as is the normal conception. Demolition work was emphasized and non-restricted. Methods were developed for demolishing the type obstacles expected at Normandy. Grueling nighttime problems conducted in the snake and alligator infested swamps of Florida produced a specimen of man who was at home with mud, noise, exhaustion, water, and hostile beings, human or otherwise.

The graduates of the school were organized into small 6 man units, which were called Navy Combat Demolition Units, and a large number were sent to England to join the large invading force in the winter of 1944. No one there knew exactly what they were or what to do with them and it was only after many weeks of being shipped around to various stations and being used merely for watches and guard duty, that they were finally able to settle down for training and invasion rehearsals. Additional men were picked up to swell the units from all sorts of commands, and though previously untrained, these men were fitted into the six man and one officer units.

These men were our original ancestors and no amount of honor bestowed upon them will be excessive; they will always have a place in the rank of history's gallants. The story of the two American beaches at Normandy, Utah and Omaha, has been recorded in detail and is available in many sources. Operations on Utahbeach proceeded with relative ease and pretty much as planned, but at the same time Omaha Beach was like the entrance to Hell. The NCD Units accompanied the assault infantry in the boats of the first wave.

 

https://www.navyfrogmen.com/WWII UDT.html

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Here are some other pictures. Top is a UDT/CB (Sea Bee) WW2 Normandy vet. Bottom is from the Seal/UDT Museum. 

5E5E8DAA-0F98-42C3-B005-183F5833F556.png

BCAB8191-CB8C-4DD8-996E-751A1D0DE2A9.jpeg

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digi-shots

Back to the original posting on this thread…. here is my contribution and an example of the mk2 that was discussed (bright blade, peened guard and slick leather grip).

 

CAF0B504-1FA0-4246-A2CB-98B159B71BD2.jpeg

520C2DA8-4766-4637-9610-0E5385A42A8C.jpeg

A760FD6C-8E48-4646-A884-4AC65C298D2A.jpeg

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Frank Trzaska

This topic sure took a change of direction...

 

So at the Scouts and Raiders Training School in Ft Pierce Fl. where they developed and trained the techniques to Army as well as USMC and Navy personnel the training knives were generically called Trench Knives in the earliest days and later changed to M3 Trench Knives. Documented, so would this be considered a UDT knife as well?  

 

 

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Regarding the units:

 

Navy Combat Demolition Units (NCDUs) were recruited primarily from the CB units training at Camp Perry VA. CBs were chosen because they already had demolition training. These men were trained at Fort Pierce and were deployed as NCDUs to the ETO/MTO. In the PTO, the NCDUs were consolidated in to what would become Underwater Demolition Teams (UDTs) and given extra training in Hawaii before being sent forward. UDTs were much larger than NCDUs and used different tactics to conduct reconnaissance and demolition operations during the enormous amphibious landing that took place in the PTO. There was a more pressing need for swimmers in the water and in-water demolition operations in the PTO primarily because of the coral reefs. This lesson was learned painfully at Tarawa as mentioned above.

 

The OSS Maritime Unit was distinctly different. The OSS MU was effectively a joint unit. It included two Combat Swimmer groups. It also had a clandestine small boat capability that operated primarily in the MTO, and later in the CBI under an entity called the Arakan Field Unit (AFU). The AFU conducted coastal reconnaissance and special operations missions. It also rescued downed aircrew and other isolated personnel. The combat swimmers were originally trained on the Potomac River south of DC almost directly across from Quantico. Combat swimmer training in a dark, cold river was quickly deemed a non starter and the entire operation was moved to the Bahamas. The OSS combat swimmers were incredibly fit and able warriors. They also trained with rebreathers and other special equipment that made them quite unique for the time. After their training, one group was given to the Navy and formed the cadre of UDT-10. The other group was eventually sent to the CBI to join the AFU. UDT-10 saw a great deal of combat and is one of the more highly decorated UDTs. Their success owes in large measure to the grit of the OSS men. Much of the tactics, equipment and ethos that carried forward in to the post war UDT and SEAL Teams actually came from the OSS MU. Hank Weldon mentioned above was one of the OSS MU men assigned to UDT 10, as was Bill Hopper. Hopper was the son of Hollywood luminary Heda Hopper and became an actor after the war. Most notably he starred in the TV show Perry Mason.

 

Although they also trained at Fort Pierce, the Scouts and Raiders were a different organization designed to operate over the beach on raiding missions. S&R was active in the MTO and were also deployed to the CBI at the end of the war where they worked briefly under SACO. 

 

Regarding the knives....I have no idea, although I suspect that many different styles were used across the various units.

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On 6/7/2022 at 12:50 AM, Dsizzle said:

 

 

Following problems with the Coral Reef at Tarawa, the U.S. Marines were adamant that their sister service, the U.S. Navy, must start shouldering more of the burden of the amphibious assault from the ship to the high water mark of the landing beach. The Marines literally demanded that the Navy form a more robust UDT capability. As a result of these lessons learned, the Army and the Navy decided to train “Scouts and Raiders” to accomplish such tasks. On a point of principle, the Marines formed their own Raiders, adopting a wide array of knives including the Camillus Raider Stiletto and the MK2. Both of these knives were designed for Marines, by Marines. In the end, the MK2 improved upon the MK1 and surpassed all others in the Marine quiver. Generically, this knife design became known as the “Ka-Bar”, which was actually the name of the Union Cutlery model of the MK2 (Kill-A-BAR). The Marine Raiders have been called the first units ever assembled specifically for Special Operations in the U.S. military and were often involved in the subsequent training of other specialized units such as the UDT’s and OSS Maritime Units.

 

Early on, both Marines and Sailors carried MK2 Knives from various makers inscribed with USN on the ricasso of the blade. Eventually, Marines received special USMC marked knives. Camillus and Union Cutlery were major manufacturers of the MK2. Robeson made a smaller number of USN and USMC MK2 knives, consequently, these knives are now among the most highly sought after MK2’s. USMC marked Robeson SurEdge knives with red spacers can fetch upwards of $500. The USN marked versions of this same Robeson model bring about half that.
 

However, I believe the USN Robeson SurEdge knives with red spacers are under-valued. First of all, it is the exact same knife as the Marine version except for the USN on the blade. Next, as mentioned earlier, both Marines and Navy Corpsmen carried Robeson USN marked knives until USMC marked blades became readily available. Finally, the ongoing debate about the “Fantasy UDT Knife” always leads back to some version of the MK2 pattern knives. This is most evident in a posting by the National UDT/Seal Museum in Ft. Pierce Florida:

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

 

 

I think your synopsis is totally inaccurate. The Marines adopted the 7-Inch fighting knife in 1942 designated as the 1219c2, the USN soon followed suit in the spring of 1943 with the Bureau of Ordnance designation as Mark 2. Referencing either of these two patterns as a "Ka-Bar" is a complete collector fabrication, though it is associated with Union Cutlery. The 1219c2 and Mark 2 are virtually identical really only differing in property mark, USMC vs. USN. Your verbiage needs to be adjusted when referencing the USMC as the 1219c2, not USMC Mark 2. Both existing well prior to Tarawa. They were not "sought after" or a specialty item, the 1219c2 was standard issue for Marines.

The Mark 2 was not an "improvement " over the Mark 1. The Mark 1 was adopted as a utility knife and the Mark 2 as a knife for Landing Forces. They were both designed and adopted coincidingly, issued to all Naval personnel in the Forward Area. Both a standard stocked item, and available at the time of Tarawa.

 

Tarawa was an extremely significant assault. It was the first amphibious operation that put all indoctrination into action. Prior to this operation everything was theoretical and only tested in war game scenarios in peacetime. In the end it was thoroughly evaluated Minute by minute and every asset that was involved. Stemming from this after-action report it was found vital to incorporate pre-invasion teams to survey the landing zones. Other interesting aspects that derived from this operation was increased naval bombardments both from surface vessels and aircraft. To also include landing vehicles among many other tactics. Tarawa was the proving ground and everything that worked and didn't work were improved and applied to all future operations

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On 6/7/2022 at 12:50 PM, Dsizzle said:

My point is that it is likely that the UDT’s used what was available to them such as Union Ka-Bar, Camillus, and Robeson MK2’s, as well as any other knife they desired to get the job done. We certainly know from the existing records that MK-2 “Ka-Bars” were issued to NCDU teams involved at Normandy. No other government-issued knife is so well documented to have been used by UDT’s.

 

Again, the Mark 2 was a standard stock and issued fighting knife for landing and amphibious forces so it is obvious that UDT teams would have them as a standard accessory. With the adoption of the Mark 1 and Mark 2 in the spring of 1943, they were both the standard issued and stocked knife for all Naval personnel, and on paper, superseding all other types. Though others were maintained at supply depots and PX locations. Knowing the fact on what a Mark 2 is, it should be of no surprise to see or hear of them in use by Navy persons, there is no argument. I have no input in regard to the supposed "UDT Knife".

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6 hours ago, dustin said:

 

I think your synopsis is totally inaccurate. The Marines adopted the 7-Inch fighting knife in 1942 designated as the 1219c2, the USN soon followed suit in the spring of 1943 with the Bureau of Ordnance designation as Mark 2. Referencing either of these two patterns as a "Ka-Bar" is a complete collector fabrication, though it is associated with Union Cutlery. The 1219c2 and Mark 2 are virtually identical really only differing in property mark, USMC vs. USN. Your verbiage needs to be adjusted when referencing the USMC as the 1219c2, not USMC Mark 2. Both existing well prior to Tarawa. They were not "sought after" or a specialty item, the 1219c2 was standard issue for Marines.

The Mark 2 was not an "improvement " over the Mark 1. The Mark 1 was adopted as a utility knife and the Mark 2 as a knife for Landing Forces. They were both designed and adopted coincidingly, issued to all Naval personnel in the Forward Area. Both a standard stocked item, and available at the time of Tarawa.

 

Tarawa was an extremely significant assault. It was the first amphibious operation that put all indoctrination into action. Prior to this operation everything was theoretical and only tested in war game scenarios in peacetime. In the end it was thoroughly evaluated Minute by minute and every asset that was involved. Stemming from this after-action report it was found vital to incorporate pre-invasion teams to survey the landing zones. Other interesting aspects that derived from this operation was increased naval bombardments both from surface vessels and aircraft. To also include landing vehicles among many other tactics. Tarawa was the proving ground and everything that worked and didn't work were improved and applied to all future operations

Dustin,

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. Your critique is well-taken. I would like to add that, as the attached documents show, the USMC 1219c2 and USN Mark 2 were indeed virtually the same knife, even in the eyes of the original manufacturer. My point is that not just collectors routinely refer to this style of knife as a KA-BAR  regardless of maker or service stamp on the blade. To this day, veterans still call all knives of this design a “KA-BAR” in informal discussions. In my mind, that validates my analysis as being accurate on that point. I do, however agree that your word preference is more precise and probably more fitting in discussions among serious expert collectors.


My second point is that not every Marine was issued a USMC marked 1219c2 immediately in 1942 or even before Tarawa. However, it goes without saying that given the choice between a Mark 1 or a USN marked Mark 2, any Marine would seek out the USMC version. This is still the case, as USMC marked blades are more highly sought after and command a significantly higher price. Standard issue or not, the USMC models have always been in high demand and were considered by Marines to be an improvement over the Mark 1, even if the Mark 1 had a different purpose originally. I am pretty sure Major America, one of the two Marines credited with the design of the 1219c2 had a Mark 1 next to it on the work bench as a benchmark from where to begin.

 

You seem to agree with my third point that early Navy UDT’s likely used what was available to them to complete the job at hand. As important as they were in WW2, they were not yet afforded the sexy budgets of the modern Navy SEALs. Could some original UDT’s, Scouts and Raiders, or OSS Maritime Units have used the “fantasy UDT knife”? Sure. However, even if they did, the odds are that many others used “SeaBee” knives, Mark 1’s, Mark 2’s, or even 1219c2’s. Many early UDT sailors  were hand selected from Construction Battalions (SEABEE’s) and would have had good access to these knives.
 

In my next post, I will attach a picture of a Western “SEABEE” that resembles both the Mark one and the “UDT Fantasy knife” and a USN Mark 2 Robeson SurEdge that resembles the “KA-BAR” located in the U.S. Navy SEAL/UDT Museum in Fort Pierce Florida…Thanks for the discussion!

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