4 stars general DCU

[Roby]

Hi everybody, I've just found on ebay this General DCU.

At a first sight it apperas to me to be of general Abizaid due to the presence of the ranger scroll on the right shoulder, which is quite particular and all the other patches that match his DCU.

However I think that this DCU has something odds...

First of all the 4 stars on the collar doesn't apper to be the classic stars and are sewned in a different way compared to the normal way.

Second it must have the combat star on the parachutist badge to be of general Abizaid while this doesn't seem to have it.

Moreover looking on google I don't find any picture of general Abizaid wearing this DCU.

 

I would like to listen the opinion of someone more expert than me to see if my doubts are right or not and if it can be a put together.

 

Maybe I'm wrong and it isn't of general Abizaid?

 

Thank you all

[KurtA]

It CERTAINLY could be a put-together. But, it is what he would have worn, as he jumped into Grenada with the 75th Rangers in 1983.

Did the seller have any provenance? Without that, no way to tell if legit.

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

It CERTAINLY could be a put-together. But, it is what he would have worn, as he jumped into Grenada with the 75th Rangers in 1983.

Did the seller have any provenance? Without that, no way to tell if legit.

I don't follow you, are you suggesting this could have been worn in 1983? Because this camouflage pattern wasn't used till 1990.

[Roby]

I don't follow you, are you suggesting this could have been worn in 1983? Because this camouflage pattern wasn't used till 1990.

I'm with you, I don't understand his reasoning...

[Martinjmpr]

No, I think Kurt is saying that since Abizaid jumped into Grenada with the 1st Ranger BN, his DCU would have looked like this after he became a General.

 

Most of the General Officer DCUs I've seen had black stars - but the brown stars certainly could be correct. EDIT: My Mistake, Gen Abizaid normally wore large brown stars like this one.

 

The fact that there's no combat jump star on the wings might be a red flag - but consider that a soldier is not required to wear every award they are entitled to. It could be something as simple as the fact that when his aid had this uniform sewn up, the tailor shop didn't have any DCU Master Parachutist badges with the combat star, so they put a badge w/o the combat star on it instead.

 

It would be tough to say this "wasn't" Gen Abizaids, but unless you have an actual photograph of him wearing the uniform, it would be tough to prove it was, too.

 

To put it another way, I know enough about DCU uniforms that I could put together a fake uniform for almost any high-ranking officer from the DCU period and there would be no way of proving it wasn't genuine because the dates, the insignia, etc, would all be correct.

 

The nice thing about camo uniforms, though, is that each camouflage uniform has a unique pattern that is almost like a fingerprint and if you can find a photo of the soldier in question wearing that uniform, you know it's genuine (and it would be almost impossible to fake one, since no two camo uniforms have exactly the same pattern.)

[Martinjmpr]

OK, I just did a quick Google search. My cursory search was unable to find any photo of Gen. Abizaid in a DCU where he did NOT have the gold combat jump star on his master-blaster wings. Nor was I able to find a photo of him with that particular uniform on (the distinctive part, to me, is the dark brown patch that forms a letter "L" on the right side [right side as worn, left side as seen from the front] of the top left pocket.)

 

What does that prove? Absolutely nothing. Could be a put together or it could be genuine.

 

General officers have to look sharp because they are often on the news. It would not surprise me if Gen. Abizaid's staff had a locker with 20 or 30 uniforms (or more) all freshly pressed and ready to go at a moment's notice in case he had to do a press conference or brief some congressional delegation or service secretary.

 

Without some further proof (a contemporary photo of Abizaid wearing that exact uniform would be best) it is simply impossible to say. Even if the seller has a "certificate of authenticity" or swears on a stack of bibles that it is real, there's no way to know. If you collect uniforms based on them belonging to some famous or prominent soldier, then I would be wary of this uniform just because it would be very easy to put together such a uniform and sell it to an unsuspecting buyer as real when it is fake.

 

OTOH if you just want a nice condition DCU that "Could" have belonged to Abizaid and the price is not outrageous, I'd say go for it. Just understand what you're buying.

[Longbranch]

 

The nice thing about camo uniforms, though, is that each camouflage uniform has a unique pattern that is almost like a fingerprint and if you can find a photo of the soldier in question wearing that uniform, you know it's genuine (and it would be almost impossible to fake one, since no two camo uniforms have exactly the same pattern.)

 

Not necessarily true. The patterns in a camouflage uniform are repeating... the only reason a camouflage uniform appears to be "unique" is because of the cloth being cut from different parts of the repeating pattern.

 

At one time, I would have totally agreed that all camouflage uniforms have a unique "fingerprint". However, 4-5 years ago I came across several DCU uniforms from the same vet from the same combat deployment, and online I found a picture of him wearing a similar uniform. Two of the uniforms I had showed the EXACT same placement of patterns in the camouflage on the BODY of the jacket itself that was in the picture. However, closer inspection showed that the POCKETS had different patterns from the jacket in the picture. I'm guessing this particular manufacturer during this production batch used a certain part of the camouflage fabric to make the main part of the jacket that happened to coincide with the repeating part of the pattern. It was weird seeing two jackets look so similar. Since then, I have been more careful when claiming "THIS is the jacket in that picture", especially if the picture only shows a partial view of the uniform.

 

I wish I would have documented the picture and the jackets to illustrate this, but alas, I wasn't looking that far ahead when I started collecting DCUs back then.

[tsakers85]

I don't believe the last letter visible in the imprint from the nametape is a D.

 

http://www.ebay.it/itm/General-4-Stelle-Us-Army-Shirt-3-Colori-Desert-/201755250935?hash=item2ef98cd0f7:g:vE4AAOSwZQRYWPLw

[KurtA]

No, I think Kurt is saying that since Abizaid jumped into Grenada with the 1st Ranger BN, his DCU would have looked like this after he became a General.

 

 

 

Exactly.

[Andrei]

 

General officers have to look sharp because they are often on the news. It would not surprise me if Gen. Abizaid's staff had a locker with 20 or 30 uniforms (or more) all freshly pressed and ready to go at a moment's notice in case he had to do a press conference or brief some congressional delegation or service secretary.

 

I had once a mere SF captain grouping with ten jungle jackets and a friend had five or six other jackets from the same man. All patched up differently. Some with CIB, some with EIB and some with just the parachutist badge.

[Martinjmpr]

I don't believe the last letter visible in the imprint from the nametape is a D.

 

http://www.ebay.it/itm/General-4-Stelle-Us-Army-Shirt-3-Colori-Desert-/201755250935?hash=item2ef98cd0f7:g:vE4AAOSwZQRYWPLw

 

I don't know how you can even tell? Unless there's a super zoom version of the picture that I'm not seeing. I can't see anything on the right pocket except that the name tape has been removed.

[Martinjmpr]

 

Not necessarily true. The patterns in a camouflage uniform are repeating... the only reason a camouflage uniform appears to be "unique" is because of the cloth being cut from different parts of the repeating pattern.

 

At one time, I would have totally agreed that all camouflage uniforms have a unique "fingerprint". However, 4-5 years ago I came across several DCU uniforms from the same vet from the same combat deployment, and online I found a picture of him wearing a similar uniform. Two of the uniforms I had showed the EXACT same placement of patterns in the camouflage on the BODY of the jacket itself that was in the picture. However, closer inspection showed that the POCKETS had different patterns from the jacket in the picture. I'm guessing this particular manufacturer during this production batch used a certain part of the camouflage fabric to make the main part of the jacket that happened to coincide with the repeating part of the pattern. It was weird seeing two jackets look so similar. Since then, I have been more careful when claiming "THIS is the jacket in that picture", especially if the picture only shows a partial view of the uniform.

 

I wish I would have documented the picture and the jackets to illustrate this, but alas, I wasn't looking that far ahead when I started collecting DCUs back then.

 

I'm referring to the uniform as a whole, including the pockets. Since the pockets are different pieces of cloth the chance that two uniforms would have the same color patterns on the pockets is virtually zero.

 

I agree that if you only saw them from the back, you might see two uniforms that were more or less identical. But once you add the variable of the patch pockets identification becomes a lot easier.

[Andrei]

I don't believe the last letter visible in the imprint from the nametape is a D.

 

http://www.ebay.it/itm/General-4-Stelle-Us-Army-Shirt-3-Colori-Desert-/201755250935?hash=item2ef98cd0f7:g:vE4AAOSwZQRYWPLw

I zoomed on the ghost of the name tape and it is hard to tell but I think the two last letters of the name are two S. Or something like ...XXXSSX

[tsakers85]

An S is what I was seeing.

[PriorityOne]

The seller has now has added two new pictures to the auction showing that the wings have a combat jump star. To me though it looks like the original ones do not have it....

[Roby]

Yes, the seller has just added 2 new pictures showing the combat jump star on the jump wings since I asked him yesterday if the wings had the star or not and he replied to me with these pictures.

 

However I tried too to zoom on the shadow on the name tape and I agree with who said that there is an S.

I also see the S

[Nkomo]

Maybe I am seeing things, but on the picture of the jumpwings with a star, there is a piece of string sticking out of the top left hand corner. With the first picture of the jump wings, the thread appears to be missing. Of course it could be my eyes

 

 

I think it may be a real possibility that the seller may have replaced the jump wings after your email. Thoughts?

[Nkomo]

Using my magnifying glass held close to the screen, I am now certain that the seller has changed the jump wings on this jacket. As Priority said above, the wings in the original post do not have a star on them Furthermore, the original picture is missing the thread in the top left hand corner that is seen in the newer pics.

 

Just from that alone, I wouldn't touch this DCU with a ten foot pole.

[Martinjmpr]

Not only that if you look at the photos of Abizaid in DCUs his uniforms had a bright yellow jump star not a pale brown one.

 

Here is an example:

 

[Martinjmpr]

Maybe I am seeing things, but on the picture of the jumpwings with a star, there is a piece of string sticking out of the top left hand corner. With the first picture of the jump wings, the thread appears to be missing. Of course it could be my eyes

 

 

I think it may be a real possibility that the seller may have replaced the jump wings after your email. Thoughts?

 

 

Using my magnifying glass held close to the screen, I am now certain that the seller has changed the jump wings on this jacket. As Priority said above, the wings in the original post do not have a star on them Furthermore, the original picture is missing the thread in the top left hand corner that is seen in the newer pics.

 

Just from that alone, I wouldn't touch this DCU with a ten foot pole.

 

Agree with both of these. If he had not modified the uniform then I would think it was possibly real. But the fact that he altered the uniform based on your comment tells me this is 100% fake.

 

"A guilty man runs even when nobody is chasing him." Same rule applies here: By leaving the name tape off he's not saying it's Gen Abizaid's jacket, but he's implying it (since I doubt there were any other 4 star generals during the DCU period who commanded CENTCOM and also had a 1/75 scroll on their right sleeve.)

 

Then he switches the wings because you busted him on not having a combat star - that is NOT the act of an honest seller.

[12A54]

Further to that, (my opinion) it appears to have never been laundered or pressed. Tapes and insignia just don't have that look of those on a field uniform that has been in use at all, even one worn by a GO.

[Dave]

I'm no expert on these, but comparing the two images back and forth...I don't see a jump star on the original wing...just FWIW...

[Nkomo]

Thanks, Dave. Your pictures illustrate perfectly what I mentioned about the thread in the top left corner.

[Nkomo]

 

 

 

Agree with both of these. If he had not modified the uniform then I would think it was possibly real. But the fact that he altered the uniform based on your comment tells me this is 100% fake.

 

"A guilty man runs even when nobody is chasing him." Same rule applies here: By leaving the name tape off he's not saying it's Gen Abizaid's jacket, but he's implying it (since I doubt there were any other 4 star generals during the DCU period who commanded CENTCOM and also had a 1/75 scroll on their right sleeve.)

 

Then he switches the wings because you busted him on not having a combat star - that is NOT the act of an honest seller.

Exactly. Well stated.

[Longbranch]

I've never liked this uniform, and items like this need to be scrutinized THOROUGHLY.

 

Actual photographs of this general in a DCU uniform show several other little differences compared to the jacket in question. The most obvious of which is the initial lack of a jump star, which the Abizaid seems to have ALWAYS worn. As mentioned, that star was always bright yellow, not pale gold/brown.

 

You'll also notice that the wreath around the top star on the Master Parachutist's Badge is slightly different in the photos Dave provided. Definitely a different set of wings.