tokashikibob Posted December 3, 2016 Share #1 Posted December 3, 2016 Gents, Anyone have any info on this turkey slicer? Best Regards, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted December 4, 2016 Share #2 Posted December 4, 2016 Some additional pictures would help, but this appears to be a M1839 Cadet sword. Does it have any markings on the ricasso (the area of the blade next to the hilt)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted December 4, 2016 Share #3 Posted December 4, 2016 Is that a maker's name on the sword and can you read it? Nice sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted December 4, 2016 Share #4 Posted December 4, 2016 Bob, The sword does appear to be a circa 1839-1872 West Point Cadet sword. These are quite scarce and most known are in fairly poor condition. While this one appears to have been sharpened it at least retains its etching and scabbard. A clear heads up photo of the maker could help establish a date. The beat up peened blade tang may be period done as West Point armorers have a history of fiddling with these swords to keep them in service. See Peterson's "The American Sword 1775-1945" #152 for more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share #5 Posted December 4, 2016 Gents, Thanks for the info on the sword, I did not see any makers mark anywhere on the blade. Looked hard under the shield but don't see anything. Only markings were on the top handle; R.H.K.W. and T. F. Looks like I picked the better between a English 1812 sabre and this American historical piece. It was worth the effort hitting the road. Got a nice Japanese samurai too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluehawk Posted December 5, 2016 Share #6 Posted December 5, 2016 Nice catch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted December 5, 2016 Gents, Here's what I found on the West Point cadet sword from Friday. Only 400 produced total. This is one of the 100 sent to West Point in 1856, and from the looks of it in better condition than the one at the West Point Museum from the wikipedia picture, think of the Civil War DNA on that grip!http://www.oldswords.com/articles/THE%20U%20S%20%20MODEL%201839%20CADET%20SWORD%201.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 6, 2016 Share #8 Posted December 6, 2016 Ames made the cadet sword. They were the only producer of this model. The initials would be inspectors mentioned in Hickox's guide or one of the other books. Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 6, 2016 Share #9 Posted December 6, 2016 I'm not finding your T.F. in Hickox but R.H.K.W is for Robert H.K.Whiteley, Captain US Army Hickox lists only 240 swords made between 1840-1856, with the first contracts adding up to only forty sword for the Virginia Military Institute, with the remaining 200 {100 each batch) going to West Point. If there is no MA on the sword, it is possibly of those early VMI orders and one of twenty recorded! There was another interim sword between this and the 1872 that was somewhat akin to the 1840nco but with a cross guard instead of the kidney counterguards produced by Ames and listed as the 1850 model. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/U.S.M.A._Ames_1850_Cadet_Sword.jpg/800px-U.S.M.A._Ames_1850_Cadet_Sword.jpg I am pretty sure that plate is from the Hamilton Ames Sword Company book Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted December 6, 2016 Share #10 Posted December 6, 2016 I believe what we are seeing is an off-center strike of the inspectors mark showing the top portions of the letters "J.H." with prominent serifs, not "T.F." ; "J.H." would be correct for a sword from the 1856 delivery. The exact number of these swords produced and when is, as Rick Wagner pointed out in his article, "somewhat murkey" since we apparently have no record of the pre-1849 deliveries to West Point although there clearly were some, perhaps as early as the late 1830s. One thing which might suggest a slightly later date is the close similarity of the grip and pommel of the cadet sword to the M1840 foot officer sword. Who knows. There is no question, however, but that this is a rare bird. Does your scabbard have the frog stud on the obverse side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted December 6, 2016 Share #11 Posted December 6, 2016 Ref my note note above, a couple more points: - On the inspector's marks, compare the "H" in "R.H.K.W." stamp with the second letter in the other inspector mark. To me, they look quite similar. - Does your scabbard show signs of having been nickle plated like the one in Rick Wagner's article? Looks like it might have, but can't really tell from the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 6, 2016 Share #12 Posted December 6, 2016 Wagner's article is based in part on the Hickox notes which are far clearer than Wagner's musing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted December 7, 2016 Author Share #13 Posted December 7, 2016 Does your scabbard have the frog stud on the obverse side? Yes it does. I'll take a closer look at the scabbard to find any traces of the plating but I seem to recall there was some evidence of that in the creases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted December 7, 2016 Author Share #14 Posted December 7, 2016 Wagner's article is based in part on the Hickox notes which are far clearer than Wagner's musing. Horse, any chance you can scan Hickox page and post it? Semper Fi, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 7, 2016 Share #15 Posted December 7, 2016 No scanner but I could probably get a picture up. Wagner pretty much paraphrased part of the page but it's a bit like the party game passing a phrase along. The thin guide if easily found for about $16. I'll try to get it up this morning or later in the evening. Cheers Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 7, 2016 Share #16 Posted December 7, 2016 I'm afraid these will probably be pretty horrible but you get the idea. The correspondence and the paragraph Wagner referenced. The final page the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 7, 2016 Share #17 Posted December 7, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 7, 2016 Share #18 Posted December 7, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted December 7, 2016 Share #19 Posted December 7, 2016 If I can speculate further, as your sword is inspected by Whiteley, it would make sense that it might be one of the batch of twenty that went to VMI via the Springfield Armory vs the later WAT marked swords destined fo West Point. Cheers Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted December 7, 2016 Share #20 Posted December 7, 2016 So technically, this could be considered a Confederate Sword. I wonder if the VMI cadets wore these style swords at the Battle of New Market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMI88 Posted December 7, 2016 Share #21 Posted December 7, 2016 There are swords with New Market provenance that don't match this pattern, but we know VMI had some of these swords so it's probably safe to say they were used. In those days just about any militia or government pattern sword was acceptable. In any case it's an amazing piece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMI88 Posted December 8, 2016 Share #22 Posted December 8, 2016 I've had a chance since I've gotten home from work to look for a little more information on swords carried by VMI cadets at New Market. The VMI Museum has images of three cadets from the period with swords. The first two -- Benjamin Colonna and Collier Minge -- carry swords that may be M1839 cadet swords. The details of the grip and crossguard aren't exactly right but that could just be the artist. Of course they could just as easily be militia swords of a similar pattern, which were in common use in the 1840s-1850s. The third cadet -- Andrew Pizzini -- carries a saber with a handguard, possibly a cavalry saber or some pattern of officer's saber. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one similar saber in a museum attributed to a VMI cadet but I don't remember the details at the moment. I know this doesn't really answer KurtA's question but it does at least show that various patterns of swords and sabers were in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted December 8, 2016 Share #23 Posted December 8, 2016 I've had a chance since I've gotten home from work to look for a little more information on swords carried by VMI cadets at New Market. The VMI Museum has images of three cadets from the period with swords. The first two -- Benjamin Colonna and Collier Minge -- carry swords that may be M1839 cadet swords. The details of the grip and crossguard aren't exactly right but that could just be the artist. Of course they could just as easily be militia swords of a similar pattern, which were in common use in the 1840s-1850s. The third cadet -- Andrew Pizzini -- carries a saber with a handguard, possibly a cavalry saber or some pattern of officer's saber. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one similar saber in a museum attributed to a VMI cadet but I don't remember the details at the moment. I know this doesn't really answer KurtA's question but it does at least show that various patterns of swords and sabers were in use. Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to post those images. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share #24 Posted December 8, 2016 Ref my note note above, a couple more points: - On the inspector's marks, compare the "H" in "R.H.K.W." stamp with the second letter in the other inspector mark. To me, they look quite similar. - Does your scabbard show signs of having been nickle plated like the one in Rick Wagner's article? Looks like it might have, but can't really tell from the photos. Yes it does, there are flakes of nickel on the scabbard in spots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokashikibob Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share #25 Posted December 8, 2016 Gentlemen, Thank you very much for the research on this historical item, you are all top shelf! Semper Fi, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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