A Vietnam war era incountry made USAF Combat Engineer Red Horse patch

[Patchcollector]

Happy Thanksgiving all,
Here from my collection is a USAF Rapid Engineer Deployable Heavy Operational Repair Squadron Engineer (RED HORSE) patch.It is hand sewn and was made in Vietnam during the war.

 

These squadrons are the United States Air Force's heavy-construction units. Their capabilities are similar to those of the U.S. Navy Seabees and U.S. Army heavy-construction organizations.

 

 

Here is some additional info I found on Wiki about these units :

 

In the Vietnam War, Air Force "Prime BEEF" ("Base Engineer Emergency Force") teams filled a need for short-term construction capabilities. However, the Air Force needed a stable and longer-term heavy-repair capability. The response was to organize two, 400-man (12 officers and 388 airmen) heavy-repair squadrons.RED HORSE units activated in 1966 when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara asked the Air Force to develop its own combat construction team.
RED HORSE squadrons provide the Air Force with a highly mobile civil engineering response force to support contingency and special operations worldwide. Units are self-sufficient, 404-person mobile squadrons, capable of rapid response and independent operations in remote, high-threat environments worldwide. They provide heavy-repair capability and construction support when requirements exceed normal base civil engineer (Prime BEEF) capabilities and where U.S. Army engineer support is not readily available.
RED HORSE units possess weapons, vehicles/equipment and vehicle maintenance, food service, emergency management (CBRN passive defense and Counter-WMD operations), comptroller, contracting, supply and medical equipment and personnel.
RED HORSE's major wartime responsibility is to provide a highly mobile, rapidly deployable, civil engineering response force that is self-sufficient to perform heavy damage repair required for recovery of critical Air Force facilities and utility systems, and aircraft launch and recovery. In addition, it accomplishes engineer support for beddown of weapon systems required to initiate and sustain operations in an austere bare-base environment, including remote hostile locations, or locations in a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear and high-yield explosives (CBRNE) prone environment.
The primary RED HORSE tasking in peacetime is to train for contingency and wartime operations. It participates regularly in Joint Chiefs of Staff and major command exercises, military operations other than war, and civic action programs. RED HORSE performs training projects that assist base construction efforts while, at the same time, honing wartime skills. Air Force RED HORSE units possess special capabilities, such as water-well drilling, explosive demolition, aircraft arresting system installation, quarry operations, concrete mobile operations, material testing, expedient facility erection, and concrete and asphalt paving.
To support the "Open the Airbase" mission, RED HORSE added an Airborne capability in 2005. With this capability, RED HORSE can rapidly deliver small specialized teams and equipment packages by airdrop or air insertion to conduct expedient airfield repairs. Initially, the only RED HORSE unit to have parachute-inserted troops (Airborne) was the 820th RED HORSE. In 2004, however, the 554th established an Airborne capability known as the 554th RHS Assault, Assessment, and Repair Operations (AARO, pronounced “arrow”) team to provide an Airborne-inserted rapid airfield seizure and repair capability for the Pacific theater.

Units

 

 

There are four active-duty, six Air Force Reserve Command, and five Air National Guard RED HORSE squadrons:

 

• 554th RED HORSE Squadron, Andersen Air Force Base, Guam
• 819th RED HORSE Squadron, Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana
• 820th RED HORSE Squadron, Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada
• 823d RED HORSE Squadron, Hurlburt Field, Florida

 

◦ Detachment 1, Tyndall AFB, Florida Also known as the Silver Flag Exercise Site. The squadron's 84-person cadre provides contingency combat support training to Active-Duty, Air Force Reserve Command, Air National Guard, Army, Marine Corps, Navy and allied nations mission support group personnel. More than 6,000 people are trained each year at the site.

 

 

The 1st Expeditionary RED HORSE Group (inactivated) was in the USCENTCOM area of responsibility (AOR).The 557th Expeditionary RED HORSE Squadron is now located in the USCENTCOM AOR, and is part of the 1st Expeditionary Civil Engineering Group that also consists of two Prime BEEF Squadrons.

 

Air Force Reserve:
• 307th RED HORSE Squadron, Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana (Deactivated Aug 2015)
• 555th RED HORSE Squadron, Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada (classic association with 820th RHS)
• 556th RED HORSE Squadron, Hurlburt Field, Florida (classic association with 823d RHS)
• 560th RED HORSE Squadron, Charleston Air Force Base, South Carolina (active association with 628th Civil Engineer Squadron)
• 567th RED HORSE Squadron, Seymour Johnson Air Force Base, North Carolina (active association with 94th Civil Engineer Squadron)
• 583d RED HORSE Squadron, Beale Air Force Base, CA (deactivated Sep 2015; re-flagged as 940 CES)

 

 

Air National Guard:
• 200th RED HORSE Squadron, Port Clinton, Ohio
◦ Detachment, Mansfield, Ohio
• 201st RED HORSE Squadron, Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania
◦ Detachment 1, Willow Grove, Pennsylvania
• 202d RED HORSE Squadron, Camp Blanding, Florida (combines with the 203d RHF to form a full squadron)
• 203d RED HORSE Flight, Camp Pendleton, Virginia (combines with the 202d RHS to form a full squadron)
• 210th RED HORSE Squadron, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico under the HQ NMANG
• 219th RED HORSE Squadron, Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana (associate unit to the 819th RHS)
• 254th RED HORSE Squadron, Andersen Air Force Base, Guam (associate unit to the 554th RHS)

 

 

The Air National Guard squadrons are split units with separate commanders. When mobilized (excluding the 219th and 254th), these units come together as one squadron.

[Patchcollector]

Back view

[firefighter]

Nice. The backing and edging reminds me more of a THAI made patch.

[468abnarm]

Good looking patch. What type of rifle do you think is represented there, an M14 or some sort of bolt action firearm?

[Patchcollector]

Thanks for the comments Guys.I believe it to be an M-14.

 

 

FF,I think that the patch does share some characteristics of a Thai made piece,but I believe that it is an incountry made patch.

[firefighter]

Thanks for the comments Guys.I believe it to be an M-14.

 

 

FF,I think that the patch does share some characteristics of a Thai made piece,but I believe that it is an incountry made patch.

 

I agree that it is an in country made patch.Insignia made in Thailand are considered in-country made.There were CE units in Thailand.

[Patchcollector]

Just to clarify,when I describe Vietnam War era patches as "incountry" made,I mean made in Vietnam,which is where I believe my patch was made.

[firefighter]

Just to clarify,when I describe Vietnam War era patches as "incountry" made,I mean made in Vietnam,which is where I believe my patch was made.

 

okay

[Bearmon]

I would say Thai made also, it shows many of the same characteristics of the patch in this post which is a no doubt Thai made patch

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/200423-1st-maw-vietnam-patch-opinions-please/

[vintageproductions]

Thai made

[Patchcollector]

I would say Thai made also, it shows many of the same characteristics of the patch in this post which is a no doubt Thai made patch

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/200423-1st-maw-vietnam-patch-opinions-please/

 

Thanks for posting the link Bearmon.I have one of those 1st MAW patches and it is a thick "puffy" back type.My Red Horse patch is thinner,has a different backing,and a less substantial border.

[Patchcollector]

Thanks for everyones' comments and opinions.IMO my patch is'nt the same as any of the three types of Thai made patches that I'm familiar with;the "puffy" backed, the "netted" back,and the thickly embroidered white speckled backed variations.

I have a few of these patches with the finished back,and they differ from the "puffy" back Thai pieces.Mine is thinner and the border is less substantial.I believe them to be hand stitched incountry made with finished backs.

Here are some patches that are seller described as "Thai made" for comparison.The eBay sellers are Vintage sales and the Dog Tag.

[Randy]

I have a patch made like that as well (the original one up top), and always considered it made in Vietnam. The stitching matches other in country styles I have. It's nowhere close as thick as the Thai made ones either. I'll have to dig it out, it's a fighter squadron one IIRC.

 

Randy

[Randy]

Here it is, 352 TFS flying F-100s from Phan Rang AB, RVN from 66-71. Looks to be made the same way, and to me looks RVN made. The lettering really gives it away to me. I have Thai, Japan and US makes from this unit as well, with all their well known characteristics. The back has glue from being on a plaque at one time. I may have some others, but too many patches and too little time!

 

Randy

[Randy]

The back...

[firefighter]

Erics USAF page >>> http://www.ericsusafpatches.nl/fighter/squadrons-flights/squadrons-flights%20341_360.htm

[Bill Scott]

I agree with Bob and FF that it is Thai made it shows call the characteristics of every Thai made piece I have ever owned.I think we are splitting hairs with puffy backs, thickness of border etc.There are as many variations of Thai made insignia as there is of any in country made piece ie:Japanese,Korean,Thai, Vietnamese, you name it.It's a great piece of Vietnam War insignia and it is real and I vote for Thai made.Just my two cents worth.Scotty

[Patchcollector]

I agree with Bob and FF that it is Thai made it shows call the characteristics of every Thai made piece I have ever owned.I think we are splitting hairs with puffy backs, thickness of border etc.There are as many variations of Thai made insignia as there is of any in country made piece ie:Japanese,Korean,Thai, Vietnamese, you name it.It's a great piece of Vietnam War insignia and it is real and I vote for Thai made.Just my two cents worth.Scotty

 

Thanks for your opinion Scotty

[Patchcollector]

Here it is, 352 TFS flying F-100s from Phan Rang AB, RVN from 66-71. Looks to be made the same way, and to me looks RVN made. The lettering really gives it away to me. I have Thai, Japan and US makes from this unit as well, with all their well known characteristics. The back has glue from being on a plaque at one time. I may have some others, but too many patches and too little time!

 

Randy

 

Randy was this unit ever stationed in Thailand?If you have a Thai made piece for this unit,could you please post an image of it here?Thanks

[Patchcollector]

Erics USAF page >>> http://www.ericsusafpatches.nl/fighter/squadrons-flights/squadrons-flights%20341_360.htm

 

I'm seeing more that a few differences between Erics and Randys patches.Randys patch looks to be overall better quality with finer,and more accurate stitching.Unfortunately,Eric does'nt post back images,I would like to compare that too.

[Randy]

I'll post all 4 makes I have together when I get home. I think this is one you have to hold to see. I have 100s of Thai pieces, many direct from vets. Have quite a few RVN ones, same deal. This piece has much more in common with RVN made pieces. They were never stationed in Thailand, but they still have a Thai made variation so that doesn't mean anything. This was common for many units there, as most Thai pieces were of a better quality, especially as far as sturdiness. On the other side, I don't have any made like this from guys only in Thailand. I don't think it's splitting hairs with the thinness of this patch. It is way thinner than the usual Thai ones; without the cloth back you could probably see right thru the twill area. That is a characteristic of many RVN USAF patches I have, as is the lettering. Again, you just have to hold it maybe to appreciate it. Maybe I'll take it to the SOS and let you guys handle it in person, it would be interesting to discuss for sure. Hopefully someone else has other examples and can help shed more light on this make.

 

Randy

[Patchcollector]

Randy

I agree that this is one of those instances when it is best to inspect it in hand,as sometimes a one dimensional scan just does'nt tell the whole story.I too have many Thai made pieces in my collection and the Red Horse piece does'nt match any of the 3 Thai types I'm familiar with.IMO this is not just splitting hairs,as the differences are more pronounced than the manufacturing variances that all handmade items have.

I have a few more pieces like my Red Horse patch;they too have finished backs.IIRC,some are US Army pieces.I believe that they were also made in Vietnam.There are very few Thai made US Army patches,as the Thais made mostly US Air Force patches.I'll try to dig them out and get them posted soon.

[firefighter]

Here are some of my patches that have always thought were Thai made. What do you think

 

[Randy]

Top and bottom are Thai, your 352 is just like mine. Note the differences in lettering style, thickness and borders. Here's another RVN made one, but with the more typical edges folded over. The thinness, embroidery and lettering style very closely match the 352 TFS. Only the outer border is different, since it wasn't done to hold a backing in place.

 

Randy

[firefighter]

The 20th TASS was stationed in Vietnam.