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is the ribbons' order consequent?


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#1 marentius

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 06:35 AM

Just wondering if the ribbons' order on this shirt,together with the rank and all the other insignias is correct or if anybody think that there is something not correct.next post is possible to see the complete shirt

DSCN3054.jpg

#2 marentius

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 06:37 AM

This is the khaki shirt.I got also a jungle shirt named and patched to the same soldier

DSCN3052A.JPG

#3 Steve B.

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 06:44 AM

The ribbons are messed up.

Off the top of my head, I see the following problems/questionable areas:

IIRC during Vietnam the Purple Heart rated below the ARCOM. The NDSM has a an oak leaf cluster - and upside-down one at that, when no second award period was yet authorized. Even if it was, the NDSM gets a star, not an OLC. I think, but am not sure, that the Occupation Medal ribbon is out of order.

I don't have time to check all my claims since I'm on my way to work. I'm sure others will chime in.

Steve

#4 GIKyle

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 09:42 AM

The ribbons are out of order slightly-- The Purple Heart should be after the Bronze Star before the Air Medal. I wouldnt necessarily change it because some guys just stacked their decorations as they got them-- you will see photos of Gen Patton wearing a Bronze Star first in front of his DSC because it had just been awarded to him The occuplation medal is in the right spot-- Early wearers of the NDSM did wear it with an OLC instead of bronze star (see book Call of Duty for photos)

Kyle

#5 atb

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:14 AM

The ribbons are messed up.

Off the top of my head, I see the following problems/questionable areas:

IIRC during Vietnam the Purple Heart rated below the ARCOM. The NDSM has a an oak leaf cluster - and upside-down one at that, when no second award period was yet authorized. Even if it was, the NDSM gets a star, not an OLC. I think, but am not sure, that the Occupation Medal ribbon is out of order.

I don't have time to check all my claims since I'm on my way to work. I'm sure others will chime in.

Steve

He certainly could have received his first NDSM for service during the period of the Korean War and the OLC is correct for that. It was not changed to a star to indicate subsequent awards of the NDSM until some time after the Vietnam Era. With five Army GCM's and his rank, it is obvious to me that he was on active duty during the Korean War.

#6 GIKyle

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 11:07 AM

He certainly could have received his first NDSM for service during the period of the Korean War and the OLC is correct for that. It was not changed to a star to indicate subsequent awards of the NDSM until some time after the Vietnam Era. With five Army GCM's and his rank, it is obvious to me that he was on active duty during the Korean War.


Good call-- The Armed Forces Reserve Medal is probably the reason you don't see any Korean Service Ribbons.

Kyle

#7 seanmc1114

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:12 PM

The ribbons are out of order slightly-- The Purple Heart should be after the Bronze Star before the Air Medal. I wouldnt necessarily change it because some guys just stacked their decorations as they got them-- you will see photos of Gen Patton wearing a Bronze Star first in front of his DSC because it had just been awarded to him The occuplation medal is in the right spot-- Early wearers of the NDSM did wear it with an OLC instead of bronze star (see book Call of Duty for photos)

Kyle

Actually, during the Vietnam era and into the 70's when this khaki shirt would have been worn, the Purple Heart should have been worn between the Army Commendation Medal and Good Conduct Medal. It used to be the lowest ranking decoration until its order of precedence was changed to put it between the Bronze Star and Meritorious Service Medal in 1985. However, I don't think the khaki shirt was still authorized then.

#8 KurtA

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:25 PM

What are the DI's? From what I can make out, they appear to be for the 25th Infantry Division HQ. I don't know how having those would relate to that 1st Aviation Bde packet hanger. Is one of the sgt chevrons missing?
The ribbons have a "legit" look to them.

Kurt

#9 Wailuna

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:26 PM

...The Armed Forces Reserve Medal is probably the reason you don't see any Korean Service Ribbons...

A more likely reason is that he wasn't in Korea during the Korean War. The Korean War era NDSM was authorized for service on active duty anywhere between June 27, 1950, and July 27, 1954. Without endorsing this particular set of ribbons, it is completely feasible that the soldier first enlisted as late as July 27, 1954, and immediately qualified for the NDSM on his first day in uniform. The remainder of the ribbons shown are consistent with that dating, except the Armed Forces Reserve Medal, which is a fly in the ointment, no matter how you factor it with the other ribbons (the AFRM is also out of order, as it should be between the VSM and VCM).

#10 USMCRECON

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:38 PM

Just wondering if the ribbons' order on this shirt,together with the rank and all the other insignias is correct or if anybody think that there is something not correct.next post is possible to see the complete shirt

DSCN3054.jpg


Depends on the era. If this is pre about 1983 or so, the Purpler Heart held the lowest priority of individual decorations and would have gone behind the commendation medal ribbon (not sure but I think it came before the GCM).

After about 1983 or so the Purple Heart was elevated in priority to just behind the Bronze Star. In any event, there should be no OLC on the National Defense. ribbon. A subsequent award of the NDSM warranted a bronze star device/devices, not an OLC.

#11 seanmc1114

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 02:23 PM

The presence of both the Good Conduct Medal with five loops and Armed Forces Reserve Medal is somewhat questionable. I believe this would indicate at least 25 years of service since the Good Conduct Medal was only awarded for active federal service (in this case at least 15 years based on the loops) and the Armed Forces Reserve Medal was awarded for a minimum of ten years of service in one of the reserve components. However, the whole rack looks "period" and worn and faded enough that it doesn't look new.

#12 atb

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 04:40 PM

Depends on the era. If this is pre about 1983 or so, the Purpler Heart held the lowest priority of individual decorations and would have gone behind the commendation medal ribbon (not sure but I think it came before the GCM).

After about 1983 or so the Purple Heart was elevated in priority to just behind the Bronze Star. In any event, there should be no OLC on the National Defense. ribbon. A subsequent award of the NDSM warranted a bronze star device/devices, not an OLC.

Again, the OLC is entirely proper for a second award of the NDSM from the Korean War until some time after the Vietnam Era. It was not changed to a star until after the Vietnam Era.

#13 Wailuna

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 12:12 AM

...the OLC is entirely proper for a second award of the NDSM...until some time after the Vietnam Era. It was not changed to a star until after the Vietnam Era...

atb is correct about the Vietnam War era NDSM device for service from December 31, 1960, through August 15, 1974. Despite what DOD and service regulations say today, the OLC was worn by the Army to signify the second NDSM eligibility period, for at least several years after the second period was announced by EO 11265. The bronze star device was later specified for all services (link here). The best way to test this proposition today is by examining period pictures (and not looking at uniforms of unknown provenance). Here is one taken in 1974. It is legit. I was there, I knew the General:

Posted Image


Street_NDSM2.jpg

...The presence [together] of both the Good Conduct Medal with five loops and Armed Forces Reserve Medal is somewhat questionable....

The Armed Forces Reserve Medal is still the red flag here, as also pointed out by seanmc1114. It's like the Sesame Street lyrics: "One of these things doesn't go with the others." It is the AFRM.

Edited by Wailuna, 27 September 2008 - 12:21 AM.


#14 11-Bull

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 07:41 AM

Pictured is the NSDM as issued to SFC James Stotts, SM, BS, died in a vehicle crash RVN, 1969. Note different size OLCs on medal and ribbon bar. Also pictured is label from original box, 1967 dated.

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#15 topdcnut

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 06:09 PM

Hey,

I might be way off base on this but if this individual was an acitve duty member of a reserve unit he may have qualified for the Armed forces reserve medal "10 yrs service" while at the same time qualifing for the Army good conduct. And as we know reserve units did serve in Vietnam and members of these units were injured and killed. I have seen this kind of discussion on uniforms before and some times we need to take into account the fact than men and women enter the active duty, earn awards, enter the reserve sometimes a different service, complete full or partial carreers, earn more awrards and leave uniforms with some interesting ribbon racks.
I do not know why the other ribbons are out of order or if anything I have stated is possible but this is my perspective. Also the A F R M was originally issued without a device for the first 10 yrs with a bronze device "shield with roman numeral 10"for 20, silver for 30 and gold for 40 now you earn the bronze device for 10, silver for 20 and gold for 30.

Just my thoughts, John

#16 RTFREY

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 08:06 PM

[quote name='marentius' post='201766' date='Sep 26 2008, 10:35 AM']Just wondering if the ribbons' order on this shirt,together with the rank and all the other insignias is correct or if anybody think that there is something not correct.next post is possible to see the complete shirt




See this site for the correct order of US Army ribbons.
http://sill-www.army...BBONS/Page.html
regards,
Bob Frey

Edited by RTFREY, 27 September 2008 - 08:07 PM.


#17 seanmc1114

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 05:41 AM

I might be way off base on this but if this individual was an acitve duty member of a reserve unit he may have qualified for the Armed forces reserve medal "10 yrs service" while at the same time qualifing for the Army good conduct.


I'm not sure if it's the case anymore, but during the 60's and 70's the awards regulations stated that an enlisted man could only earn the Good Conduct Medal while in active federal service which service did not simultaneously count towards the time period required for the Armed Forces Reserve Medal. Thus any service counting towards one of the medals did not count towards the other. That is why the Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal was created in the early 70's. It is basically a Good Conduct Medal for the National Guard and Army Reserve, although it was also authorized for officers, unlike the Good Conduct Medal.

#18 Wailuna

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 09:38 AM

...an enlisted man could only earn the Good Conduct Medal while in active federal service which service did not simultaneously count towards the time period required for the Armed Forces Reserve Medal....

That's a pretty good summation of the main difficulty posed by the AGCM vs. AFRM on this uniform, seanmc1114. For anyone who wants more detail, here are the links TIOH fact sheets on AGCM and AFRM.

However, the most glaring unremarked problem with this uniform is the name tag. What's up with that, marentius? Did you block the name or is that a blank name tag? Is there a name tape on the fatigue jacket? With a name, someone here might be able to track down this Master Sergeant.

#19 seanmc1114

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 12:03 PM

Something about the look of the shirt itself has been bothering me and I just figured it out. it is apparently a long sleeve shirt that has had its sleeves altered to make it a short sleeve shirt. You can tell by the style of buttons which are consistent with long sleeve Army khaki shirts I have. The short sleeve shirts had a different type of button. Also, the issue short sleeve shirts did not have a button at the neck because they were not worn with ties. Finally, if you look at the eppauletts you will notice that they have an "X" pattern sewn at their base where they are attached at the shoulder. The issue short sleeve shirts were not done this way. I think this practice of cutting down a shirt for reuse was fairly common among career soldiers.

Edited by seanmc1114, 28 September 2008 - 12:06 PM.


#20 Wailuna

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 03:20 PM

...it is apparently a long sleeve shirt that has had its sleeves altered to make it a short sleeve shirt...this practice of cutting down a shirt for reuse was fairly common among career soldiers...

Another good call, seanmc1114. This was a long sleeve khaki shirt with cut-off sleeves. According to Stanton (U.S. Army Uniforms of the Cold War, 1948-1973, p. 113), the long sleeve khaki shirt was prohibited for wear with the uniform effective July 1, 1966, and the Army explicitly directed soldiers to convert their long sleeve shirts to short sleeve equivalents.

#21 marentius

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:33 AM

Hi,first of all I would like to thank all the members that left a comment.This forum is really a great way to share knowledge and to learn from expert collectors.Here is a picture of the 2nd model jungle shirt with pocket patch of the 52nd Aviation battalion-Combat that came together with the khaki shirt.the Jacket is named to ALEXANDER,the badges on the shoulder boards look to me to be some kind of tin soft metal production,I'll try to post some pics of them.
28092008.jpg

#22 marentius

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:36 AM

P1010526.jpg
The same metal insignia is present on the shoulder boards of the jungle shirt

#23 marentius

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:41 AM

P1010524A.jpg
this is one of the insignia on one of the shoulder boards of the jungle jacket

#24 1stDivVet

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 01:23 PM

Hey,

I might be way off base on this but if this individual was an acitve duty member of a reserve unit he may have qualified for the Armed forces reserve medal "10 yrs service" while at the same time qualifing for the Army good conduct. And as we know reserve units did serve in Vietnam and members of these units were injured and killed. I have seen this kind of discussion on uniforms before and some times we need to take into account the fact than men and women enter the active duty, earn awards, enter the reserve sometimes a different service, complete full or partial carreers, earn more awrards and leave uniforms with some interesting ribbon racks.
I do not know why the other ribbons are out of order or if anything I have stated is possible but this is my perspective. Also the A F R M was originally issued without a device for the first 10 yrs with a bronze device "shield with roman numeral 10"for 20, silver for 30 and gold for 40 now you earn the bronze device for 10, silver for 20 and gold for 30.

Just my thoughts, John



Very true.. Case in point, here's the ribbons on my USAF Ike. It was un named, but I was able to track the individual down by the Ribbons. Brigadier General Olbert Lassiter did his first military service in the 30's with a 2 year stint in the Florida National Guard. Then spent 2 years as a radio operator in the Marines. He became an aviation cadet in 1940 and served in both theatres flying P-38's, B-25's, and finishing the war in B-29's. He left the Army when the formation of the USAF came about and retired in the late 60's early 70's. He died in 73.. His service left a collection of USN/USMC, Army, and USAF awards spanning over 30 years..An odd group to say the least.

Fins.

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Edited by 1stDivVet, 29 September 2008 - 01:24 PM.


#25 Wailuna

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:11 PM

...this is one of the insignia on one of the shoulder boards of the jungle jacket...

Thanks for the new images, marentius. The DI is for 52d Aviation Bn. (RVN 2/1963 - 4/1972. DI first approved 6/1966. Link here). 52d Avn. Bn. was assigned to 1st Aviation Brigade from mid-1966 until April, 1972 (link here).

Is there a laundry mark inside MSG Alexander's uniform (viz. A####)?


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