VIETNAM PHOENIX PROGRAM patched jungle jacket

[Zirni]

Hey Guys,

 

Here s a JJ patched out with Phoenix program patches.

LAOTIAN jump wings, name+ Us Army tapes, CIB, senior jump wings, captain and Intelligence collar insignias. All hand embroidered on ripstop and semms to be from the same worksmanship.

Phoenix Pocket patch, SF SSI with tab and PHOENIX tab also made on RS material and hand embroidered look to be from the same worksmanship as well.

 

Are the patches vietnamese made or made in another asian country? Any thoughts would be highly appreciated.

 

Thanks very much in advance

 

Zirni

[Zirni]

[Zirni]

[Zirni]

[63 RECON]

In my mind, not good at all. As previously discussed.

[Spy vs Spy]

This would not be for my collection. Interesting to hear what others have to say.

 

Martin

[hochiminhtrail]

it seem that all patches are hand seen with the exact same thread, i really dont know about this one.

[doyler]

fantasy in my opinion

[manayunkman]

I have had the opportunity to talk several Phoenix veterans and they never wore any related insignia.

 

As a matter of fact they didn't know anyone in the program who wore any related insignia.

 

In addition they didn't even know anything about a Phoenix patch even existing.

 

To advertise who they were would only undermine what they were doing.

 

Their identities were a closely guarded secret.

[doyler]

This one has to much "advertising" on it for all the reasons Manny said...

[Patchcollector]

Hard for me to say where it was made.The worksmanship is good.As others have stated it appears to have been done at the same time.Is there any info on the original owner of the jacket?

[Zirni]

Thanks for all your input.

 

Unfortunately i have no info on it.nothing.

 

I think a key for this jacket could be if we know weather the patches are legit or not. They a re definately a good worksmanship and nicely done

[Patchcollector]

On the surface,the patches look OK to me.The "Airborne" arc is a bit off,but since it was made using a "hand guided" technique I would imagine it would be difficult to fabricate a perfect arc.

 

Are there any images of the inside of the jacket that you can post,especially where the patches are sewn on?

 

If this were mine I would be doing research on "Glenn".If he were a member of Special Forces then I would think that would be where I would start.

[Zirni]

Yeah that s my impressiom as well.

 

I ve already done some research but nothing found yet.

 

I dont have many so far but got one pic from the inside

[Patchcollector]

There is alot of misconception and misunderstanding about the CORDS/ Phoenix/Phung Hoang programs.

 

Many believe that they were just assassination programs,which is incorrect.There were different facets of the programs;capture and interrogation being chief among them.Almost all of the relatively small amount of deaths resulted from shootouts with the PRU's(the action arm of the program)when the individuals resisted.

 

Here is an excerpt from an excellent article on the CIA website:

 

 

Colonel Andrew R. Finlayson, USMC (Ret.)

The Phoenix program is arguably the most misunderstood and controversial program undertaken by the governments of the United States and South Vietnam during the Vietnam War. It was, quite simply, a set of programs that sought to attack and destroy the political infrastructure of the Lao Dong Party (hereafter referred to as the Viet Cong infrastructure or VCI) in South Vietnam.
Phoenix was misunderstood because it was classified, and the information obtained by the press and others was often anecdotal, unsubstantiated, or false. The program was controversial because the antiwar movement and critical scholars in the United States and elsewhere portrayed it as an unlawful and immoral assassination program targeting civilians.

Critics of US involvement in Vietnam claimed that the PRUs were nothing more than assassination teams, yet only 14 percent of the VCI killed under Phoenix were killed by PRUs. Most of the rest died in skirmishes and raids involving South Vietnamese soldiers and police and the US military.

 

 

I'm only including a small amount of the article here.For more interesting(and factual) reading,including a first hand account,click on this link:

 

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol51no2/a-retrospective-on-counterinsurgency-operations.html

 

 

Phoenix was the name for the US operation,Phung Hoang was the South Vietnamese program.
There was an intermingling of military and CIA personnel involved.There was no doubt a low key aspect to the people involved,especially on the CIA side,but I'm not sure if it was as "super secret" as many have claimed.

 

I believe that there are threads here on the Forum discussing the programs and the paraphernalia they produced.The Phoenix/Phung Hoang bird symbol was widely known to many South Vietnamese.I've seen photos of signs using the symbol that were posted in public in South Vietnam during the war.

 

 

Back to the item posted here.The Jacket and insignia look to me to be representative of that produced during the war.There were more than a few items produced during the war that had the symbols and words seen on the patches of this uniform.I've also seen signs,plaques,documents,etc.. with these symbols.

 

 

I'm posting an image of a Phoenix/PhungHoang flag/guideon.

 

Here is a link to the great site where I found the image:

http://vietnam-militaria.com/tag/phung-hoang-hanh-quan/

 

The PRU's,which were the "action arm" of the program also had patches for themselves.I have some in my collection.

 

 

There is evidence that the US Army Recon Teams,which were also "secret",had patches and other items made up for themselves.While not allowed to be worn on missions,they were worn in camp and/or made up as souvenirs to commemorate their service.

 

 

In my view there are several possible reasons for this jackets existence:

1.This jacket could have been made as a presentation piece,souvenir, or to be worn on certain occasions.

2.It could also have been made postwar by the soldier as a "Vets" piece.

3.It could be a postwar made fantasy piece,meant to deceive.

 

 

Regarding option # 3,I have this to ask;are there any similar examples that are known to be fakes?Does anyone have any evidence of similar items that have been,or are currently being made?If so,please post them for comparison.

[gwb123]

I would almost be tempted to accept this one except for the Phoenix tab over the Airborne tab and SF patch.

 

This defies the logic of US Army insignia practices of the time. Phoenix was a program, not a qualification.

 

The only thing that I have ever seen worn over the Airborne tab from that period is a Ranger tab. Ranger qualified SF troops had the option of wearing it or not. Many did not as they felt their SF qualifications were at a higher level than Ranger.

 

The Airborne tab is also poorly positioned over the SF patch. I'd be surprised if such a super trooper would find that acceptable.

[63 RECON]

Aside from the whole jacket, the insignia embroidered on the ripstop material very could be real. I have a couple of JJs with RS material as the insignia base.

[Zirni]

Thank you all for the comments!

 

Patchcollector, You hit that nail square on the head! . Thank you for your good work.

If there is any evidence out there that the patches itself are repros or made somewhen (after war) from a faker to deceive people we would go with that.

Otherwise your option 1 and 2 could be possible.

As a fact such a patched uniform would not be seen that often, that makes it difficult to believe i think...but not inprobable.

 

So if there is some evidence out there that the patches are fakes or that something very similar turned up often in the past please give the inputs. Also if sombody has any evidence in form of pics etc...that such a patch constellation had been existed.

 

Thanky you

[Zirni]

Btw the seller told me that there are some darker shaddows under the corners of the patches as far he can see. Would be some evidence that the patches had been there for a longer period.

[Patchcollector]

I agree with Gil that the "Phoenix" tab looks a bit cheesy,but having stated that I've also seen some strange ornamentation made for "presentation" and "made for Vets" type pieces.

 

 

It's good that you posted it on the Forum.Hopefully some info will surface to solve the mystery about how this jacket came about!

[Zirni]

Exactly, i think that will help and advise all of us :-)

[manayunkman]

How about finding a period photo of someone wearing something remotely tied to the Phoenix Program?

[hochiminhtrail]

first of all the Phoenix program was not all around the PRU, you had many different VNese agencies countributing to the program, Police Special Branche, NPFF, Regional and Popular forces, and maybe one or two other agencies that i have not in mind, the PRU were just a small part in a huge apparatus, all the agencies had to share (in theory) they're informations at district level and province level (DIOCC and PIOCC), and then coordinate with NPFF or Regional Forces, and the PRU, to get the VC or VCI.

 

Just to say it was not a PRU show on it s own.

 

cheers

HCMT

[Patchcollector]

How about finding a period photo of someone wearing something remotely tied to the Phoenix Program?

 

I have'nt found a photo of a patch being worn(yet),but here is an image of a patch which is similar in style to the originally posted one here.

[gwb123]

I hate to say this, and I would be quit happy if this were legit, but I am wondering if this is an example of some of the fantasy embroidered uniforms that are coming out of Thailand these days?

 

Despite the wear on the uniform and the cloth used for the patches, the embroidered threads look very fresh.

 

Any one with a similar thought?