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S&W Victory .38


SGT York
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Un US property marked Victory..kind of rae that it's not marked but totally legit...one of a couple I'm selling soon Other is USN. Opinion on non US property marked Victorys?

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Charlie Flick

A nice looking Victory there.

 

Actually, there were many thousands of the 4 inch barreled, .38 Special Victory revolvers that had no US or US Navy markings. The great bulk of those guns were shipped under authorization of the Defense Supplies Corporation to civilian users that qualified for small arms purchases in WW2. These included law enforcement agencies, public utilities, and defense plants. A few unmarked Victories are known to have shipped to the US Navy as well.

 

If you can tell me the complete serial number I will be able to give you a good estimate on when this revolver shipped from the S&W factory.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

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Roy Jinks (S&W historian) told me the unmarked are rarest and he thinks it funny that no one wants them considering how rare they are!

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Just because something is rare doesn't necessarily mean its valuable. Just like Charlie had stated the bulk of these were for law enforcement, defense plants and other civilian agencies which drops the desirability meter way down for the majority. Martial collectors that want to add some examples to their collections go for the US and US Navy property marked ones. The British proofed ones aren't' very desirable either.

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I know Knew Roy JInks and he knows what's rare and i have trust in him for along time,

 

I have the same firearm and its a pilots side arm NOT marked us navy .mine is marked the same way

 

and in the same number range and navy paperwork late war ownership.

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I have a former Hellcat pilot's revolver and it is also not marked Navy, although it is marked U.S. Property. Don't recall the serial number but it is S&W lettered to Department of Navy.

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There is a simple explanation and its not an anomaly that US Navy personnel have US PROPERTY marked Victory models. Direct US Navy procurements ceased in April 1942 though they were still being delivered into the following year on those orders. Any subsequent requisitions outside those direct procurements would be through the Army Supply Program which will be US PROPERTY marked. The demand exponentially grew when the Victory model became part of the standard compliment for flight crew. It would be my guesstimate that it would be fair to say there was a 50/50 spilt of distributed side arms of US NAVY PROPERTY and US PROPERTY revolvers. The procurements by the US Navy were not projected to supply aviation activities with thousands requisitioned from the Army Supply program to compensate for the new demand.

If you had an unmarked victory and got the factory letter it most likely only says what service it was shipped to and because it was the US Navy does not mean it was aviation related. This has become an erroneous correlation. Most of these revolvers were distributed for security work in the continental USA connected to naval activities civilian and government.

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Un US property marked Victory..kind of rare that it's not marked but totally legit...one of a couple I'm selling soon Other is USN. Opinion on non US property marked Victorys?

 

They are out there. In fact, non-USP or USN marked .38 Spl Victories seem to be more common than USP or USN marked revolvers in my area. Local shop sold a non-USP/USN marked all matching 4" .38 Spl Victory last week or the week before.

 

On thing I've also seen is a Victory or two with the USP/USN markings removed from the topstrap. Some have been refinished rather well and could be over looked that the markings had been removed unless you looked real close. The other side of the coin being the non-gun people that file or grind the USP/USN markings off about ten minutes before giving/selling grandpa or dad's revolver to their local shop......

 

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There is a simple explanation and its not an anomaly that US Navy personnel have US PROPERTY marked Victory models. Direct US Navy procurements ceased in April 1942 though they were still being delivered into the following year on those orders. Any subsequent requisitions outside those direct procurements would be through the Army Supply Program which will be US PROPERTY marked. The demand exponentially grew when the Victory model became part of the standard compliment for flight crew. It would be my guesstimate that it would be fair to say there was a 50/50 spilt of distributed side arms of US NAVY PROPERTY and US PROPERTY revolvers. The procurements by the US Navy were not projected to supply aviation activities with thousands requisitioned from the Army Supply program to compensate for the new demand.

If you had an unmarked victory and got the factory letter it most likely only says what service it was shipped to and because it was the US Navy does not mean it was aviation related. This has become an erroneous correlation. Most of these revolvers were distributed for security work in the continental USA connected to naval activities civilian and government.

It was purchased directly from the vet, hence I know it's aviation related. Jinks also said that nearly all Victory revolvers were shipped to the Navy. Mine is not unmarked, it's marked u.s. Property.
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Gap, you obviously did not read one word what I wrote. I'm not contesting that your revolver was not used by a pilot, I was merely making a long winded statement that US PROPERTY marked revovlvers were common for naval activites so yours being marked as such is not anythong out of the ordinary.

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A nice looking Victory there.

 

Actually, there were many thousands of the 4 inch barreled, .38 Special Victory revolvers that had no US or US Navy markings. The great bulk of those guns were shipped under authorization of the Defense Supplies Corporation to civilian users that qualified for small arms purchases in WW2. These included law enforcement agencies, public utilities, and defense plants. A few unmarked Victories are known to have shipped to the US Navy as well.

 

If you can tell me the complete serial number I will be able to give you a good estimate on when this revolver shipped from the S&W factory.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

 

Hi ser # 477904

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Charlie Flick

Sgt. York:

 

Your Victory serialed V477904 likely shipped from the S&W factory in the December 1943-January 1944 time frame. The factory did not ship in strict consecutive serial number order but this estimate, drawn from the Victory Model Database, is reliable.

 

On the bottom of the butt are there any markings besides the serial number such as a flaming bomb or the letter "W"?

 

HTH.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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, my cooment

Who cares who used it, its a great firearm and if you like it thats all the matters, LOL

 

You should care its about the historical background to this firearm. People whom don't care are the ones who spew made up illusions and perpetuate misconceptions. Its seems feathers got ruffled over some comments for no good reason.

Charlie started off with a general background of the revolver of the original post. Then the comment about how these are rare but do not command higher prices, my comment was that us property and us navy property marked ones are simply just more desirable having no basis on rarity that's the fact of the collecting community.

Gap had then posted that his attributed revolver is us property marked which I took as a statement of him thinking its unusual followed by my post explaining that it is not uncommon at all.

The number one fact of the matter is only a small percentage of victory model revolvers were used by aviators in the combat zone. The collecting community desire combat used items so very one that comes down the pike gets associated with aviation and that's not entirely correct historically.

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Sgt. York:

 

Your Victory serialed V477904 likely shipped from the S&W factory in the December 1943-January 1944 time frame. The factory did not ship in strict consecutive serial number order but this estimate, drawn from the Victory Model Database, is reliable.

 

On the bottom of the butt are there any markings besides the serial number such as a flaming bomb or the letter "W"?

 

HTH.

 

Regards,

Charlie

"V" and ordnance bomb on the opposite side of the lanyard ring, Mint bore.

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Charlie Flick

Sgt. York:

 

Those markings and other data you provided strongly suggest that your Victory was a DSC authorized shipment, as outlined above. If you really want to chase this down to a certainty you can obtain a S&W factory history letter at a cost of $75. This will give you some basic info on the Victory as well as a specific ship date and destination for your serial number. I can give you the info on where to obtain the letter from if so desired. (The address has changed in the last 60 days.) Since you indicated that you will be selling this one you may not want to bother with a factory letter.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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Sgt. York:

 

Those markings and other data you provided strongly suggest that your Victory was a DSC authorized shipment, as outlined above. If you really want to chase this down to a certainty you can obtain a S&W factory history letter at a cost of $75. This will give you some basic info on the Victory as well as a specific ship date and destination for your serial number. I can give you the info on where to obtain the letter from if so desired. (The address has changed in the last 60 days.) Since you indicated that you will be selling this one you may not want to bother with a factory letter.

 

Regards,

Charlie

Thanks Charlie..appreciate the info.

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The number one fact of the matter is only a small percentage of victory model revolvers were used by aviators in the combat zone. The collecting community desire combat used items so very one that comes down the pike gets associated with aviation and that's not entirely correct historically.

Dustin,

I always thought that NAVAIR was the biggest user of Victory revolver within the WW2 US Navy. Considering that most combat Aviators and Aircrew were wearing these pistols, I find it hard to see a bigger user within the USN. Is my thinking wrong?

 

Chris

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Dustin I do not make up stories about the weapons I own,I care that they are ww2 dated and not all collectors care if they were in combat. many Pilots never used there sidearm and many are in Great shape just knowing its basics

history I a good thing, BUT sometimes its a bridge too far.

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You have to understand that the bureau of aeronautics was only a small part of the US Navy. From my findings of operational size at any give time and procurement and requirement data it is my educated guesstimate that of the approx. 350,000 victory model type revolvers procured from 1941 to 1945 about 45-50,000 were allocated to flight personnel. That means for every 7 shipped one went into the air. the total number is probably a little less considering they were turned in and reissued upon rotations of pilots and aircrew.

Warroom1 its not specifically was it in combat but rather an item that would have been in the combat zone

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Dustin, I don't necessarily agree. I would not say Naval Aviation was a "small" part of the WW2 Navy. There were 99 aircraft carriers at the end of the war. Some numbers are up to 160 aircraft carriers total throughout the war. The truth is somewhere in between these numbers.

 

The US Navy trained over 65,000 designated Naval Aviators during the war years. I have no idea of the total number of designated Naval Aircrewmen, but I would think the number of Aircrewmen would be higher than the Aviator numbers.

 

I know that not every Aviator was issued a sidearm, but given the total numbers of carriers and men, and Patrol type combat aircraft, I would think the total number of pistols in Naval Aviation would be much greater than 45-50,000 pistols. Just my opinion, maybe my thinking is still flawed??? IDK.

 

Chris

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