Spec 8 fatique shirt

[patches]

Posted this in one of the Rank Topics I started, but believe it merits a post here as well. While there's that chance it's put together piece, The only reason I gave this any credence at all and deigned to post it is because of the Rank Topic I started is about a official bulletin in Army Information Digest of April 1965, where it states for all to see. Could this be the real deal?

 

Here it is again, note the passage on the right column second from the bottom.

 

 

This apparently being for the year 1964

THE FEW E-8 SPECIALISTS PROMOTED IN 1958 HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED INTO NCO GRADES AND NO OTHERS HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED SINCE.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162143603604?rmvSB=true

[MattS]

I'm sure others will search, but I only find one veteran from that time frame with that last name, Jerry W. who died in 2007.

DELASHMET, JERRY W

SP3 US ARMY

DATE OF BIRTH: 11/01/1941

DATE OF DEATH: 02/23/2007

BURIED AT:

NAPLES MEMORIAL GARDENS

525 111TH AVE NORTH NAPLES, FL 34108

(239) 597-3101

 

Also: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Delashmet&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSob=n&GRid=18093742&

[patches]

Thanks Matt, wouln't be him I'm sure, Tried looking myself, no go.

[KurtA]

Thanks Matt, wouln't be him I'm sure, Tried looking myself, no go.

P-

Where did you find that photo of the SP8 shirt? My "put-together-ometer" gets a strong reading on it.

[MattS]

The link to the eBay auction is at the bottom.

[KurtA]

The link to the eBay auction is at the bottom.

 

Thanks. Seller also has an 82nd officer's shirt that I'm suspicious of.

[MattS]

I say unless someone can find a SF SP8 from a roster with that last name, we ought to be suspicious.

[Justin B.]

I'd be really curious as to what MOS this CIB, master jump wings soldier would have to not be hard-stripe NCO in a Special Forces unit! This one seems "off" to me. Interesting subject, as always, though!

Justin B.

[patches]

I agree with assessments here by KurtA and Matts, Thought provoking true based on that AID bulletin of the apparent existence of holders Spec 8s from 1958-59 to circa 1963-64, but one of the more curious aspects, like why the MAAG combat patch, and one without a Tab? CIB, if real maybe CIB from Korea, but then why the MAAG???

 

Will check out the other shirt vendor has the 82nd Abn one and have a look see.

 

EDIT seen it was sold, Hope it's the real deal

[patches]

Seen the 82nd shirt, an officer, will check registry for name.

[patches]

Checked early registries for the 82nd, not listed, if OK, then probably a Reserve Commissioned Officer, these are not listed in the early to mid 60s ones

[Martinjmpr]

 

I'd be really curious as to what MOS this CIB, master jump wings soldier would have to not be hard-stripe NCO in a Special Forces unit! This one seems "off" to me. Interesting subject, as always, though!

Justin B.

 

 

My thought exactly. I suppose he could have been an SF Medic, since I know there were SP/7 medical NCOs but it's hard to imagine an SF E8 sitting in a Specialists' spot.

 

Was the MAAG patch ever authorized as a combat patch? And when was the Jungle Expert patch authorized? Both of those would be red flags for me along with the SP/8 rank.

[e19]

 

I'd be really curious as to what MOS this CIB, master jump wings soldier would have to not be hard-stripe NCO in a Special Forces unit! This one seems "off" to me. Interesting subject, as always, though!

Justin B.

1st off, you can not tell from the shirt whether the individual was SF Qualified, or not. I remember SFQ'd Sp7s and Sp6s in group who had CIBs and were master blasters. I believe they entered SF at those ranks and held them until their next promotions. They could have earned their CIBs early in their enlistments while serving in infantry units, and later reclassified. An SFQ'd SP8 could have been serving in SF as 96B4S, or if not Q'd as a 96B4O.

 

That said, my guess would be that the shirt is jacked-up!

[e19]

when was the Jungle Expert patch authorized? Both of those would be red flags for me along with the SP/8 rank.

The Jungle Expert Patch was worn, as pictured on the shirt, in SF during the '60s.

[Martinjmpr]

I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy, i.e. the simplest explanation is usually correct.

 

We all know that with very few exceptions, the the US Military doesn't make ONE of anything in terms of uniforms. IOW, if there was one authentic SP/8 shirt, there would be more. Where are they?

 

You would also expect at least one vet to come forward and say "yes, I was a SP/8 from 19XX to 19XX."

 

There is also the fact that while the article Patches posted seems to indicate that there were very few if any E8 specialists after 1958, and the uniform seems to be an early to mid 60's Vietnam uniform.

 

In order to believe that uniform is genuine you'd have to believe a lot of stuff that is hard to swallow. OTOH, it's quite easy to believe someone put it together - happens all the time.

[e19]

Years ago, I was told that no one was ever promoted to the rank of SP8 or SP9.

 

According to the TIOH, they were done away with in 1965.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=9168&grp=2&menu=Uniformed%20Services

 

The last page of the following article says SP8 & SP9 were abolished in 1968, without anyone ever being promoted to either of them.

 

http://www.ncohistory.com/files/shsr.pdf

[MattS]

I think it's entirely possible, as stated before, this may be a case of a fatigue shirt with name and US Army tapes on it that was 'dressed up. There was a soldier with that last name who probably served in the early 1960s given his age. There is currently no evidence to support the SSIs, qualification badges, or rank though.

[patches]

Years ago, I was told that no one was ever promoted to the rank of SP8 or SP9.

 

According to the TIOH, they were done away with in 1965.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=9168&grp=2&menu=Uniformed%20Services

 

The last page of the following article says SP8 & SP9 were abolished in 1968, without anyone ever being promoted to either of them.

 

http://www.ncohistory.com/files/shsr.pdf

I agree, it's a muddle Yes, but then there this, it does confirm the 1965 date at least.

 

 

And it does state that

 

"THE FEW E-8 SPECIALISTS PROMOTED IN 1958 HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED INTO NCO GRADES AND NO OTHERS HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED SINCE."

[patches]

I think it's entirely possible, as stated before, this may be a case of a fatigue shirt with name and US Army tapes on it that was 'dressed up. There was a soldier with that last name who probably served in the early 1960s given his age. There is currently no evidence to support the SSIs, qualification badges, or rank though.

True, the best is to find something in a Roster, even if he's only listed as a Master Sergeant, that might be sufficient.

[patches]

I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy, i.e. the simplest explanation is usually correct.

 

We all know that with very few exceptions, the the US Military doesn't make ONE of anything in terms of uniforms. IOW, if there was one authentic SP/8 shirt, there would be more. Where are they?

 

You would also expect at least one vet to come forward and say "yes, I was a SP/8 from 19XX to 19XX."

 

There is also the fact that while the article Patches posted seems to indicate that there were very few if any E8 specialists after 1958, and the uniform seems to be an early to mid 60's Vietnam uniform.

 

In order to believe that uniform is genuine you'd have to believe a lot of stuff that is hard to swallow. OTOH, it's quite easy to believe someone put it together - happens all the time.

There is also the fact that while the article Patches posted seems to indicate that there were very few if any E8 specialists after 1958, and the uniform seems to be an early to mid 60's Vietnam uniform.

 

That would be by early 1965, that's when this bulletin came out, April 1965, and presuming of course as is the case always, by March 1965, March 1965 being the date this issue went to press. But I'm gathering this is probably a little earlier in 1963-64 that the supposed Spec 8s where supposedly given hardstripes.

[e19]

I agree, it's a muddle Yes, but then there this, it does confirm the 1965 date at least.

 

 

And it does state that

 

"THE FEW E-8 SPECIALISTS PROMOTED IN 1958 HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED INTO NCO GRADES AND NO OTHERS HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED SINCE."

It sure is. I noticed in that document that mentioned the rank of "Lance Corporal" with the insignia being 1 chevron with a rocker. That insignia didn't come into use until around 68 and it was For PFC...Lance Corporal didn't come into use.

[seanmc1114]

It sure is. I noticed in that document that mentioned the rank of "Lance Corporal" with the insignia being 1 chevron with a rocker. That insignia didn't come into use until around 68 and it was For PFC...Lance Corporal didn't come into use.

The article is full of matters that never quite came to be. True on the PFC vs. Lance Corporal. I think the new PFC rank (one stripe and one rocker) was first worn in May 1968. Same with the new Command Sergeant Major rank (referred to simply as Sergeant Major in the article). I have a newspaper article from May 1968 showing the sergeants major of the 101st Airborne being presented with their new CSM stripes. It is odd though that the changes mentioned in the article took three years to actually implement.

 

On the other hand, the article indicates that the new E-9 rank with wreath around the star will simply be Sergeant Major and the existing E-9 rank (three stripes and three rockers with a star in the center) would become Chief Master Sergeant. As far as I know this never happened and the rank simply became Sergeant Major. I have seen some references to the effect that the rank was also referred to as Staff Sergeant Major but I have never seen an actual example of this in practice such as orders.

 

The article also makes no mention of the two E-7 ranks - Sergeant First Class and Platoon Sergeant. I'm not sure the latter was ever an official grade designation but I have certainly seen many sets of official orders that listed it as a soldier's rank, even while others in the same orders were listed as SFC.

 

 

[e19]

It may show on orders because it was their duty position.

[seanmc1114]

It may show on orders because it was their duty position.

Probably so. But the type of orders I am referring to are for awards so they are not directly linked to anyone's position per se. But I have only ever seen an E-7 listed as Platoon Sergeant on orders even though I know of many instances where E-6s and E-5s were also serving as platoon sergeants. It makes me think the title was at least somewhat official. As an example, we know there is the official rank of First Sergeant with its own insignia. However, that position within a company may be filled by a master sergeant or sergeant first class who carry the title but are referred to in orders by their actual grade.

 

Here is a sample of the orders I am referring to which I posted in another topic that referenced the 1965 rank chart discussed in this topic. Note the last soldier's rank is shown as Platoon Sergeant.These orders did not reference a soldier's duties but only their rank, so in that sense, the rank must have been considered official.

[Martinjmpr]

WRT the PSG rank, when I was in the National Guard from 1983 - 1986, I served in an MP Company (220th MP CO in Colorado.) All duty rosters and other "official" documents referred to our E-7 platoon sergeants by the rank of PSG (for example, an OPORD might read "personnel will report to PSG O'Connell at 0600.")

 

What's interesting to me is that I was on active duty before this time (1980-81) and also after this time (1986 - 96) and never - EVER - saw an E-7 referred to as a "PSG", it was always "SFC", even if that E-7 was serving the capacity of a Platoon Sergeant.

 

What I'm thinking is that the "official" rank of PSG had been discontinued some time earlier but in the "old" (i.e. pre-Desert Storm) National Guard, there were a lot of "old habits" that were continued even after the "real" Army had gotten rid of them.