Model 1859 USMC Forage/Kepi Insignia Anomaly. Staff NCO/Officers or Confederate?

[nchistory]

Model 1859 USMC Forage/Kepi Insignia Anomaly. Staff NCO/Officers or Confederate?

Picked these M-59s up from the Oregon US Marine Collection of Richard Barilla. The one pictured on right the standard Enlisted M-59, assumingly used on fatigue caps Forage/Kepi from 1859 through at least 1870. The one pictured on left is an anomaly, as the horn is false embroidered bugle, with floating silver Olde English M. The (M) is irremovable, no provision for background color, and letter is ½ the size of the enlisted model. From what I have read, Officers used embroidered, while enlisted used the simple stamped brass style, so who used the false embroidered style???? Staff NCOs, Officers Summer undress, or possible Confederate imported. Feedback welcome.

[nchistory]

[nchistory]

[Brig]

One on the right appears to be typical Bannerman's junk

 

I don't believe there was and differentiating insignia for SNCOs that far back. Can't speak on what it is, but it's a crude solder job, I'd wager frankenstein crest

[nchistory]

Well, I just got schooled Confederates didn't use them Tim, so one elimination. Came from an outstanding collection, so not Frankenstein just yet...

[nchistory]

Hey Tim, picked this up too, thought you would like to see, being an image guy.

 

[Brig]

Interesting image...almost makes them look like a barbershop quartet

[SgtMaddoxUSMC]

On the original pieces, didn't they have red horsehair backing? The Bannerman ones always seem to have that waxy disc on their versions.

[nchistory]

I thought the background on right was red moracin leather, as shown on this shako missing M.

[nchistory]

[nchistory]

Another 59 Shako

[nchistory]

Another 59

[nchistory]

[Brig]

On real ones I believe it should be leather. The fakes, restrikes, and surplus can be found with a variety of cloth, metal, and plastic red backings. 99.9% of Marine horns out there are fake, Bannermans, etc

[nchistory]

Archive these they are good... B050 Officer's false embroidered bugle with a variant white letter M, EM kepi device B045, both probably authentic surplus, per Alec & Fred.

[nchistory]

This appears to be a REPOP, looks like plastic disk and artificially aged bugle.

[Brig]

Last one a definite, artificially aged repop...I still don't like the one on the right above, with the leather through the loop.

[usmcaviator]

Chris,

You've posted a lot of stuff on here. Most is a mixture of original surplus, some not, and one piece is a no doubt original (the kepi in post #13, which I believe was sold by Cowan's a few years ago....I think it still shows up in internet searches). I'll cover them all by post #.

 

#1- is showing up quite frequently recently and looks to be surplus horn with surplus or repo M. In this configuration, I don't believe this insignia existed.

#2- first one covered above. 2nd looks to be a decent surplus Stoles Kirk or Bannerman surplus (PS only the 1859 fatigue cap ornament should have the red backing, it wasn't prescribed or known on the shako)

#3- could have been put together better with boogers

#6- neat CDV

#9- all looks pieced together from surplus, red backing was added, probably by Bannerman's

#10- all looks like pretty good, again with exception of red backed "M" on shako, all looks like original surplus

#11- all put together, shako not USMC, shield and leaves only looks ok (this was an old offer on E-bay and then I think it journeyed to some other auction sites)

#12- same POS with horn and "M" being S&S Firearms (most of what you see aged on E-bay now is S&S repo)

#13- a real civil war Kepi

#16- S&S or older Naugatuck Novelties repo that has been pissed on or chemically aged

 

Good news is all of these are covered in Fred Briuer's upcoming book "United States Marine Corps Emblems, 1804 to World War I".

 

Mike

[nchistory]

Thanks Mike, I just ordered Fred's new book. I tried searching internet for some of these items, which resulted in this post. The only thing I own is 1, 2, & 6. I was looking at #9, and posted this with more detail.<br />http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/271812-m-1859-shako-usmc/<br /><br />The sad thing is when you have good $'s to spend, only SH*T ON MARKET. Very frustrating. Looking for a legit shako, if anyone has one.

[Leatherneck72]

Concur with Mike's assessment. P1859 Kepi is a real one, shako is put together junk on a militia body.

[Brig]

Looking for a legit shako, if anyone has one.

Long line waiting on one of those to appear

[Leatherneck72]

One of what to appear?

[Brig]

One of what to appear?

legit shakos on the market

[nchistory]

Anybody got one for sale??? I'm a buyer.

[nchistory]

There's on at the Horse Soldier, I just think it 2x retail..

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/11881