Prototype WW2 US Knuckle knife

[Fritz]

This belongs to a very close friend of mine and thought I would share some pictures here. This is the exact knife pictured in coles book and to our knowledge the only one with a scabbard. This is one of the coolest looking blades I have ever seen, the blade and scabbard are both numbered "3" and is ordence marked on the spine of the blade, just a great rare knife. Enjoy the pics.

 

Fritz

[Greg Robinson]

Is it a prototype made up by the military......or a one of a kind custom made piece made by a civilian knife maker? Lacking documentation my vote would be for the latter. Either way it's a nice looking knife.

[Fritz]

Greg,

From what we have been able to find is that it was made by the military, there are only 3 that he is aware of, one is in a museum somewhere east another is in a private collection and this one, there is an older US fighting knife book besides Coles book that this knife is pictured in and discussed on a limited scale. Other than that thats all the info we have been able to come up with.

 

Fritz

[nuke41]

Fritz,

 

The knuckle bow looks pinned, is it removable?

 

Thanks,

Jeb

[craig_pickrall]

This is part of a series of pictures from military archives that were posted on MCF by member ARMY JUNK. I do not know who he is, whether he is a member of this forum or how to contact him for permission to post this series. The complete series covers a period from the late 20's or early 30's through WW2.

 

I thought it worthwhile to post these 3 pics to assist you in ID'ing your knife / bayonet and hopefully ARMY JUNK will sign in and tell us more.

 

[Fritz]

Thanks for the picture Craig, The late Mr. Cole ID'd this for my friend when he put it in his book, can't remeber which volume it's in but he had it for quite some time when he was writting his book, as for the other text that this knife(not this one exactly) is pictured I can not remember except that when that one was written only two examples had been known and neither one had a scabbard, this particular blade was purchesd some 20 years ago at an OGCA show in columbus for very little. If I can find the Cole volume number I'll post it.

 

Fritz

[bayonetman]

M.H.Cole, US Military Knives, Bayonets and Machetes, Book 4, Page 19.

 

Another similar one: Albert N Hardin, Jr., The American Bayonet 1776-1964, Page 182.

 

As Mr. Hardin suggests, these were part of a series of experimental models made during WW2. Somewhere I have read a report on these but can't put my mind just where at the moment. Really interesting piece, thanks for the photos.

[thebladeslinger]

Thanks for posting these photos. Always nice to see different knives I've never seen before.

[Fritz]

Bayonetman, thanks! I couldn't remeber these, been awhile since I had seen the second reference book. I photograghed my friends entire collection for him so I'll be posting some other blades later, there are a few tough ones in there, and one M3 we just cnat fiqure out why the made it the way they did.

 

Fritz

[Fritz]

All, thought I would bring this topic back to the top to see if any information from any other sources has come to light,

 

Fritz

[knucvks7]

Nice looking knife.

[Fritz]

Hey all, thought I would bring this back to the top to see if any new info might be floating out there, this knife now resides in my collection since the passing of my friend a few years ago ?, going thru the correspondence letters between my friend and Mr Cole I found this letter from the American Historical Foundation that might shed a little light on this. Any other info out there?

 

Fritz

[thorin6]

The problem with a one-off knife is finding documentation. Even having a tag without attribution presents a big question mark. I have a bayonet that falls in the one-off category as seen here:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/150219-mystery-m1-bayonet/?hl=thorin6

In that the pictures were originally posted through a hosting service, here is one picture comparing my double-edged, 8-3/4 inch M1 bayonet (with shortened scabbard), bottom, to a standard cut-down (so called M1905E1) bayonet and scabbard, top. I'm not trying to hi-jack this thread, just adding to the discussion.

The knife shown by Army Junk certainly differs a bit from the one shown in Post #1, so I'm not sure that is conclusive evidence. However, I don't think all the documentation from the trials in 1942 that resulted in the M1 10-inch bayonet being selected for production has been uncovered (Frank Trzaska has some available on his site, which I have). Those trials really need more detective work.

Also, what's on the inside of the scales? Are they standard scales for the M1905 1942/43 production or later?

 

 

[Fritz]

Thanks Thorin6, here is a pic of the backs of the grips, marked AB P5 and AB012 , I remeber in one of the correspondence letters with Mr Cole, my friend noted the grips were slightly different in size compared to an M1 Bayonet grip, I found a page called Bayonet points 23, and AB is for the Auburn Button Works. I agree, the Infantry trials paperwork really do need more investigative work.

 

Fritz

[thorin6]

The next question is whether the scabbard is a modified 16-inch scabbard (M3) or is it an original 10-inch scabbard (M7)? Related questions if it's a modified 16-inch scabbard are what is the length of the scabbard; what are the heat lot numbers on the backside of the top plate; does it have the metal springs to catch the blade; are there four (or so) plastic ribs at the bottom of the inside of the scabbard to hold the blade from moving around; and were the tabs on the throat re-bent?

Also, is the scabbard painted black or molded black?

[Fritz]

The markings on the underside ar B 3/0 N , the scabbard IMO is molded black and it measures overall just shy of 10", it has runners but can't see down inside for the added holding bumps

 

Fritz

[dskjl]

This is so cool, something the experts can dispute and the hopeful can contemplate and dream about, just too cool.

[thorin6]

The scales seem to be the standard WW2 ones. The overall length of the standard M7 bayonet scabbard is just over 11 in and I've never seen one molded in black. The heat lot number would appear to be for the M7 bayonet as would having the springs, although the number is right in the transition time from the M3 to M7. That would tend to indicate that the scabbard for the knuckle knife was put together after the decision was made to go to the 10-inch length M1 bayonet. That would also support the knuckle knife as being put together after the Infantry Board was testing different bayonet lengths in 1942 to early 1943. I'm not aware of any documentation on experimental bayonets carried on after 1943.

No matter where it came from, the knuckle handled bayonet is certainly interesting. The US over the Ordnance Bomb would leave us to the conclusion that this is military made, but where and why still remains to be determined.

[Fritz]

Thanks, someday something will pop out in research on it. I still remember my friend buying this back in the early 80s , we were at OGCA when it was still in Columbus Ohio, ahh the days of stuff like this being found at gun shows LOL

 

Fritz

[sactroop]

I wonder were the other example is, referred to in the American Historical Foundation letter post #12.

[Fritz]

I'd loved to see that one, I remember MrCole telling my friend there was a collector/ meuseum that really wanted this knife back when he had it while drawing it for his book. I wish I could remember what reference I researched and found in a book referencing a knife like this, I pulled it out of inter-library sharing when I worked at Carlson Library at The University of Toledo back in 84, the book was written in the 60s and I thought I made copies for my friend but they must have been lost,

 

Fritz

[ccyooper]

Good chance it could reside in Larry Thomas's knife museum in PA. He has a lot of 1 off type stuff in addition to all the normal findings.

[Fritz]

I'll have to see if I can contact him. Thanks!

 

Fritz

[dustin]

Some re;evnat information to the back ground of the devlopment of experimental prototype bayonets or fighting knives.

 

 

 

 

 

[dustin]

These experimetal knives/bayonets went under evaluation in a variety of type, but what seems to happen was the the adoption of the M3 and M4.