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Photo's from pre WW1 to 1930's ?


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#51 CaptCav

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:10 AM

Ahhhhh sooooo!!!! I knew I had seen some mortar pits while at Pickens. Your gracious correction is most humbly appreciated. Could not remember where they were located. I will add those to my ground recon (when and IF the roads ever re-open).

Re: Wrong caliber disappearing rifles - not outta the question that the 12" guns were pulled and replaced by 6" (or vice versa). Even though I have been to Cooper many times, I cannot remember the caliber of the remaining gun mounted there. That will hafta wait 'til I can do a route recon, as well.

The first time I visited Ft. Pickens (1961), the railroad tracks were still in place. They have long since disappeared; but those maps you PMed me seem to indicate that the current hard top roads generally follow the old RR beds. From what I've read, all supplies, food, ammunition etc were shipped over from the mainland; then loaded on the RR and transported to the appropriate batteries.

One last point.......... look very closely at that the vintage pic of the disappearing rifle. In the far left distance, is a white house. The map you provided shows it labed as U.S.C.C. - the old Coast Guard Station. If you go further east on the sat pix - there it still stands!!.

Edited by CaptCav, 23 September 2008 - 11:35 AM.


#52 CaptCav

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:44 AM

My bad Wailuna, on your map the house is labeled U.S.C.G.

#53 khaki

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 02:11 PM

Here are the other photo's showing more of the disappearing gun or guns. Not sure if all photo's are of the same one or if these were in different batteries.
Outstanding research from everyone!!
soldiers_sitting_on_unmounted.jpg
carriage_only.jpg
copy_disprng_gun_soldiernext_to.jpg

#54 CaptCav

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 06:21 PM

I really like those last pix. I once watched a 175mm SP battery "change out" a worn out tube (using two M-88 VTRs). It was not an easy task. It seems the disappearing crew has done the same here. As I remember, there were a number of integral hoists built into each battery's concrete revetments. I wonder if they used them in this case? Can you imagine what a bear it was, to change out that BIG honkin' tube?

Edited by CaptCav, 23 September 2008 - 06:23 PM.


#55 cwnorma

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 07:19 PM

Nobody has mentioned this yet:

http://www.northamericanforts.com/

Great views, maps and information of various fortifications throughout the US.

And from the same site:

http://fcit.coedu.us...cken/picken.htm

Modern views of Ft Pickens

And still more:

http://www.cityshowc...attract/fp.html

http://andy_bennett....om/endicot.html



Chris

Edited by cwnorma, 23 September 2008 - 07:23 PM.


#56 Wailuna

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:52 PM

...Here are some that show a little (very little) more of the area around I guess most of the other photo's were taken. Most of the shots just don't show a lot of landscape. Sure wish someone would have written something on these photo's!

Forwarded from post #29:

The___Gap___.jpg

Lead provided by cwnorma, post #55 (link here):

The_Gap_.jpg
View of Ft. Pickens through the gap in the wall that was once Bastion D. This bastion was destroyed on June 20, 1899, when a fire reached a magazine containing 8,000 pounds of powder. The explosion scattered debris over one and a half miles, killing one man.




#57 CaptCav

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 03:39 AM

Chris - Thanks for the reference, on the different "periods" of use at Fort Pickens. There is a plaque at Battery Cooper, which says the 6" disappearing rifle was re-installed in 1976. The gun was donated by the Smithsonian (along with all the other "modern" guns); and installation was supervised by a retired former Coast Artillery colonel. Sadly, the last time I was over there (about 5 years ago), 30+ years of exposure to salt air & humidity had begun to take their toll.

Wailuna - Nice picture!! There you have "almost" the same view (of the CW fort), as in the vintage pic. I never knew the hole in the wall was created by an explosion in a magazine. "Someone", many, many years ago told me that portion of the wall was removed, to give easier access for construction of the "modernized" battery. The explosion makes more sense, as the missing wall area is quite jagged and erratic in appearance.

Khaki - thanks so much for posting these old views. This has been a great thread. Fort Pickens has been a passion of mine, since I "discovered" it (as a kid) in the late 1950s. My new project will be to try to identify the locations of those photos of the guys, on the parade ground. I suspect they were taken on main post, Fort Barrancas. As fate would have it, my father is buried in the national cemetery at Fort Barrancas. Next visit, I'll drive around old main post and see if I can find some of the buildings in the photos.

Edited by CaptCav, 24 September 2008 - 03:50 AM.


#58 Camp_Kearny

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 02:22 PM

The Fort Picken 6" Disappearing Rifle was one of a pair that was at West Point for training the Cadets for the Coast Artillery. The other gun is at Fort Winfield Scott in San Francisco and is at Battery Chamberlain at Baker Beach. The National Park Service along with the Coast Defense Study Group has done a fine job maintaining and in some cases restoring the gun. I had the honor to work on the gun a few times and I have the utmost respect for all of the "Concrete Soldiers". It is a bit unnerving standing inches from a 35 ton (?) gun swinging up into the air into the firing position. I also remember being drenched in hydrolic fluid when I forgot to fully tighten the recoil mechanism. There are many ways to lose a hand, arm, or leg working on those old guns.

#59 Wailuna

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 02:52 PM

...The Fort Picken 6" Disappearing Rifle was one of a pair that was at West Point for training the Cadets for the Coast Artillery. The other gun is at Fort Winfield Scott in San Francisco and is at Battery Chamberlain...

Thanks very much for that excellent lead, Kearny. Here is a side-by-side of the guns at Battery Cooper (Ft. Pickens) and Battery Chamberlain (Ft. Winfield Scott). No question about typing the gun at Battery Cooper now: It is obviously the same model as the m1903 6-inch gun shown at Battery Chamberlain, which is captioned 1918 (link here for source).

Battery_Cooper.jpg Battery_Chamberlin.jpg



#60 CaptCav

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 02:57 PM

There was something about post #3 (soldiers in dress blues w/stacked arms M1903 rifles) that kept nagging at me. I was pretty sure I had been there. Then it hit me......... that's the back side of the old Hotel San Carlos, in Pensacola. There in followed another of my Google searches.

The San Carlos opened in 1910, and sadly, was torn down in 1992-93 to make way for a new Federal courthouse. What an architectural loss. The hotel was located on the west side of Palafox (the old "main drag"). No chance to go there and take digpix; or look at satellite pix.

BUT!!!

Go to: http://www.stjohnshi..._hotel2_fpc.jpg

Now compare that post card with post #3. In post #3, you are looking northeast, toward Palafox. In the postcard, you are on Palafox, looking northwest. The two frame houses on the left (post #3 vintage pic), are not visible in the vintage postcard. But if you look at the 3d building from the left (in the vintage pic) - you will notice the same architectural ornamentation on the pediment; and the same canvas awnings. If you look in the distance behind building #3, you will see the San Carlos, looming over the smaller building. Also, a very small portion of the SW corner of the San Carlos is visible. What little architectural ornamentation you can see on the San Carlos (particularly the balcony, which lines up with the pediment of the house) appears to match in both photos.

Over the years, I have seen photos (from the early 20th century), of soldiers and sailors marching north on Palafox St in large parades, such as July 4th. I think these guys (in post #3) were waiting to form up and march in such a parade. With the San Carlos in view, the photo is definitely post 1910. Now for the top date.......... anybody know when they stopped wearing that model of dress blues?

Camp_Kearney: I'm pleased to learn that someone is now trying to take better care of the gun at Battery Cooper. I saw it just after it was mounted, and she was a beauty. The last time I saw her (can't remember, but 5-8 years ago) she was in dreadful shape. Being an old (and VERY anal tanker & air cavalryman), the lack of PM drove me crazy, lol. Thanks for your help!!! And yes - I suspect those old guns are like my old tanks - they ate feet, arms, legs (and sometimes lives) with alarming frequency.

Edited by CaptCav, 24 September 2008 - 03:14 PM.


#61 Camp_Kearny

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 03:32 PM

Capt Cav,

I actually only worked on the one at Fort Winfield Scott. They are tough to work on as everything weighs literally a ton and the parts are pretty much non-existent. At the time, I was part of a reenactment group, 6th Coast Artillery Battery E, and we had the manpower and some of the know-how to work on these guns. We relied heavily on a couple of former Navy Guys who were experts on preserving steel/iron in a salt-water enviroment, and a couple of historians from the Coastal Defense Study Group. We eventually broke up due to a fight with the NPS over sleeping in historic buildings and some issues some of the park leadership had over 10-12 guys armed in a National Park. I have mixed feelings over reenacting, but I think restoring this gun and being some period set dressing for displays was worthwhile.

Fort Winfield Scott and the Golden Gate National Park would be a great place for a Coast Artillery Museum. It has weapon systems from most of the periods, 3rd System, Endicott, WWII, and the Nike Air Defense System. I also liked Fort DeSoto in St Petersberg, FL which has a pair of Spanish American War 6" Barbette Guns that the US bought from the British and four 12" Mortars. The other great Coast Artillery Fort I have been to was Fort McArthur in San Pedro, CA. Their museum is top notch and has some very rare items including a 155 GPF, and the mount for an M3 90mm AMTB Gun.

#62 cwnorma

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 03:53 PM

Fort Pickens has been a passion of mine, since I "discovered" it (as a kid) in the late 1950s.


I had the same thing happen to me with Ft Dade and Ft De Soto on Edgemont and Mullet Keys--Florida's other great Endicott period Coast Artillery forts. My imagination was fired by the old gun emplacements, now off shore, or right on the surf-line, slowly breaking up in the waves. Somehow sad, yet still proud, in an indefinable way.

Battery_Burchstead.jpg



Fort Desoto still has four 12" mortars:


desoto12.jpg
From Andy Bennett's Fort Desoto Website


Chris

Edited by cwnorma, 24 September 2008 - 03:54 PM.


#63 Wailuna

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 04:36 PM

...compare that post card with post #3. In post #3, you are looking northeast, toward Palafox. In the postcard, you are on Palafox, looking northwest. The two frame houses on the left (post #3 vintage pic), are not visible in the vintage postcard. But if you look at the 3d building from the left (in the vintage pic) - you will notice the same architectural ornamentation on the pediment; and the same canvas awnings. If you look in the distance behind building #3, you will see the San Carlos, looming over the smaller building. Also, a very small portion of the SW corner of the San Carlos is visible. What little architectural ornamentation you can see on the San Carlos (particularly the balcony, which lines up with the pediment of the house) appears to match in both photos...

CaptCav to the rescue! Good work, friend. Here are side-by-side renderings. The two buildings to the right behind the soldiers clearly are San Carlos Hotel and the building next to it, as pictured in the post card. To answer your question about the uniform: The soldier's are wearing the 1902 pattern dress blue, which was worn from 1902 until suspended before WWI (see Emerson's Encyclopedia -- even he does not hazard an exact date troops ceased wearing this uniform). Considering your analysis, 1910 to about 1917 is the most probable dating of the vintage picture (which confirms the same dating that has been hypothesized elsewhere in this thread).

Parade_at_San_Carlos.jpg


Hotel_San_Carlos.jpg



#64 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 09:36 AM

No doubt about it - positive ID, I should have remembered the hotel.... :huh:

#65 Wailuna

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 10:38 AM

Unless someone comes in with pretty convincing evidence to the contrary (perhaps from some amazing parallel universe), khaki's vintage album photos posted in this thread clearly are from Ft. Pickens - Ft. Barrancas - Pensacola (although the dead bodies first shown in post #6 probably require another explanation). A moderator might want to adjust the original title of this topic accordingly, to better guide posterity to this excellent thread.

#66 CaptCav

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 10:55 AM

Strange you should bring up the "bodies". The last few days, I've given the subject some thought. I'm not a Coast Artillery expert, but try this one......... I've read WAAAAY too much about my beloved old regiment, the 3d Cavalry (today's 3d ACR). After the Span-Am war, the US picked up stewardship of the Philippines. In the following years, there was an insurgency in that area of the world (by the same guys we're having trouble with in that area, today). As part of the stability operations conducted by the US in the insurrection years, many US Army regiments (including the 3d Cav) were rotated through the Philippines. Their rotations were very similar to what the Army is doing in Iraq today. It would stand to reason that cav regiments were not the only branches to rotate through. Common sense would indicate that the Coast Arty would rotate their guys through the Philippine batteries as well. Perhaps the owner of this album did a "short tour" on Corregidor (or other batteries); and picked up the pix while "in-country". Some things never change, huh?

Edited by CaptCav, 25 September 2008 - 11:00 AM.


#67 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 11:16 AM

I would agree with your premise, I suspect we've not seen the last of the pictures from the album...?

#68 khaki

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 09:57 AM

Yes, there are still more photo's from this same album that I will also post http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif There has been so much info everyone has given me on these photo's! I will now start putting that info to each pic now. I'm trying to get higher res and enlarging details in the photo's to get a close up of a unit number or a shoulder patch but no luck so far.
There are 2 other photo's that I thought kind of out of place like the "bodies in the ravine" photo I will post...

This one has writing on the back I will post. There is an "x" underneath 1 person so I wondered if he is somehow connected with the album? Are these American or British uniforms?

back of above photo...


This is the other one that was in the album but just didn't seem like the rest. Perhaps a foriegn friend? They all look British to me and the writing on the board maybe something about flying?

Too small to read....
m___Group_photo_look_British_copy_2.jpg

Edited by khaki, 30 September 2008 - 10:01 AM.


#69 khaki

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 10:06 AM

Geez! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/pinch.gif Only meant to edit the last one and not wipe out the other two! Will try again.
This one has writing on the back I will post. There is an "x" underneath 1 person so I wondered if he is somehow connected with the album? Are these American or British uniforms?
m___Group_photo_look_like_British_officers_1929_Hong_Kong__China_copy.jpg
Back of above photo.
m___Group_photo_look_like_British_officers_1929_Hong_Kong__China._back_of_photo.jpg

#70 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 10:12 AM

Hummmm... tin roof, gutters & downspouts, shuttered windows - South Pacific? Sure hope you can figure out how you posted the larger photo's that started the thread - these thumb nail pictures are visually hard to work with.

#71 khaki

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 10:41 AM

Here you go.. I'm still figuring out this resizing thing :blink:
This is much clearer and the sign can be made out better. These guy's don't appear to be American do they?
m___Group_photo_look_British_copy.jpg

#72 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 10:45 AM

Much better to see the details. To me.... Brits or aussies ?

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 30 September 2008 - 10:45 AM.


#73 khaki

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 10:53 AM

Here is the one of the officers(?) again but larger... I was wondering if the guy marked with an "X" might have something to do with the other guy's in the album? Are any of these guy's wearing an American uniform? Look British to me again.
m___Group_photo_look_like_British_officers_1929_Hong_Kong__China_copy.jpg

#74 1stDivVet

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 01:28 PM

Back shows it to be English

XMas 1929
H.K.S. Bde. RA
Sgts Mess
Hong Kong, China.


Not sure what HKS means, but RA is Royal Artillary and they did have seperate mess for officers and sargeants then. Especially in the 'colonies'.. NIce photo group.

Fins.

#75 1stDivVet

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 01:33 PM


Not sure if this is the dress uniform of the same era as the previous photo's or not. Notice the palm looking tree, thats why I was thinking an island.....



Reminds me of this uniform.. Still in use by the old timers into the 30's

Fins.

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