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Photo's from pre WW1 to 1930's ?


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#26 Wailuna

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 12:50 AM

An M1895MI 12-inch rifle on the M1901 disappearing carriage (post #16):

12_______disappearing_carriage.jpg

Here is a training manual schematic showing how the carriage worked:

Gun_carriage.jpg

Note: Other guns were also mounted on disappearing carriages: 6-inch, 8-inch, 10-inch, and 14-inch.

An 3-inch M1903 gun on a pedestal mount (post #24):

3_______pedestal_mount.jpg

Nothing visible in any of these pictures of Coast Artillery gun batteries or equipment indicates that they were taken in the Philippines (posts #7, #15, #16, #17, #24, and #25). In fact, the scenery shown around the batteries pictured here (posts #17 and #24) does not resemble locations of U.S. coastal defenses in the Philippines. My provisional guess is that your Coast Artillery pictures date from ca. 1910 - 1920 and they were taken at one of the many Coast Artillery stations in S.E. United States. Post more pictures like these and we might be better able to pin it down for you (and enlargements would help, too.)

#27 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 01:17 AM

Post more pictures like these and we might be better able to pin it down for you (and enlargements would help, too.)


I agree, your first group of pictures were much easier to work with... the ones in recent posts are not much use. s/f Darrell

#28 khaki

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for all the input! Sure makes the photo's even more interesting now that I'm learning something about them! I'm going through them to try to find shots that show more of the area they where in. Is that what would help the most? My computer is moving slower then molasas! I will post as soon I can.

#29 khaki

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 01:44 PM

Here are some that show a little (very little) more of the area around I guess most of the other photo's were taken. Most of the shots just don't show a lot of landscape. Sure wish someone would have written something on these photo's! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif


tents_1.jpg

tents_2.jpg

tents_3.jpg

#30 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 02:08 PM

I wish my photo of the battleship was closer so we could know which one she is http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif The other shot I have is of a 2 stacker. Would it be a destroyer?


This is also a Battleship, South Carolina class, either the USS South Carolina (BB-26) or the USS Michigan (BB-27). They were both scrapped by the Washington Treaty of 1922.

South Carolina Class Battleships

#31 Camp_Kearny

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 03:41 PM

Could someone also tell me what type of uniform is being worn by the man on the far right. Is it the dress version of what the other guys have? I'm assuming they are all in the Coastal Artillery since most of the photo's seem to deal with the subject http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/ermm.gif


[/quote]

That soldier is wearing the Model 1902 Dress Uniform minus the "branch of service lanyard" that are normally worn over the left shoulder. I would date these photos in the early teens due to the uniforms especially the Montana Peak campaign hats being worn and the lack of the "branch of service lanyard". The Model 1902 uniform was discontinued during WWI and only came into limited use after the war. I really like the first two photos showing the soldiers in their field gear. Rare to see that clear of the photo showing the early cartridge belts with the suspenders and haversack in use. Also that little 3" Gun were not used for that long by the Coast Artillery, they were replaced by 6" Disappearing and Barbette Guns. The 3" and 6" guns were used to protect the minefields that were present at most major US Harbors. An excellent album of photos.

#32 CaptCav

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 04:31 PM

I'm thinking the series of photos w/the 12" disappearing rifle (as well as others) may very well be at Fort Pickens, FL. The main post was at Fort Barrancas (now part of Pensacola NAS); but most of the batteries were on the island. Troops were rotated through the island batteries, from the mainland. My grandfather was in the cAC (pre WWI) and he stated the only way to get to the island was by motor launches. The terrain (looking from the island, back to Pensacola) and the very white sand sure look like Ft Pickens. The batteries (one still has a disappearing rifle mounted) and buildings are still maintained by the Nat'l Park Service. It's just an hour's drive away - next time I'm over there, I'll try to find similar views and take matching digpix.

Later edit: In going over the photos again, I'm pretty sure it's Fort Pickens. There is one photo of conical tents (which appear to be tinted a pink color). I am almost positive that is the original (Civil War vintage) Fort Pickens, on the far right side/background. One of the first pix shows a palm tree and old southern houses. I'm wondering if that's downtown Pensacola?

Edited by CaptCav, 20 September 2008 - 04:42 PM.


#33 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 05:10 PM

Some of the photo's are of ships too. Here is one that looks like a battleship to me.


After checking some other photos in the Naval Archives, this Battleship is the USS OHIO (BB-12)

Scroll down to "Stern view of Ohio (BB-12) departing Mare Island in August 1915" photo in link and click to enlarge

USS OHIO (BB-12)

Edited by Salvage Sailor, 20 September 2008 - 05:17 PM.


#34 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 05:32 PM

I wish my photo of the battleship was closer so we could know which one she is http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif The other shot I have is of a 2 stacker. Would it be a destroyer?


After checking some other photos in the Naval Archives, this Battleship is the USS MICHIGAN (BB-27).

If you scroll down to these (2) photos, you can see the searchlight mast between the 2nd stack and the aft cage mast. This was particular to the MICHIGAN circa WWI.

1. Photographed circa 1914. U.S. Naval Historical Center Photograph # NH 73772.

2. Port side view of the Michigan (BB-27) underway, circa 1916. Photo by E. Muller, Jr. Contributed by Roy C. Thomas from the book,"The United States Navy", published in 1919.

BB-27 USS MICHIGAN

#35 Wailuna

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 01:50 AM

I'm thinking the series of photos w/the 12" disappearing rifle (as well as others) may very well be at Fort Pickens, FL. The main post was at Fort Barrancas (now part of Pensacola NAS); but most of the batteries were on the island. Troops were rotated through the island batteries, from the mainland. My grandfather was in the cAC (pre WWI) and he stated the only way to get to the island was by motor launches. The terrain (looking from the island, back to Pensacola) and the very white sand sure look like Ft Pickens. The batteries (one still has a disappearing rifle mounted) and buildings are still maintained by the Nat'l Park Service. It's just an hour's drive away - next time I'm over there, I'll try to find similar views and take matching digpix.

Later edit: In going over the photos again, I'm pretty sure it's Fort Pickens. There is one photo of conical tents (which appear to be tinted a pink color). I am almost positive that is the original (Civil War vintage) Fort Pickens, on the far right side/background. One of the first pix shows a palm tree and old southern houses. I'm wondering if that's downtown Pensacola?

Ft. Pickens sounds good, too. There were 12-inch DC rifles in Battery Pensecola and 3-in PM guns at Battery Trueman and Battery Payne. One sure thing about these old coastal fortifications: The "modern" batteries were built to last and if you can pinpoint the location, you are almost certain to find remnants of the battery, if not an entire structure. Good luck with your search.

#36 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 05:12 AM

With posting of the pictures on #29... it does appear to be the notable white sands of Pensacola.

#37 khaki

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:10 AM

The knowledge you guy's have on these photo's is amazing! Putting the names of locations, battery names, gun models and uniforms being worn makes these photo's even more amazing to me. There are still more in this album I'd like to post and see what everyones opinion on them is. I'm going to have some enlargements made of some of these and add the text to it now that I know what some of them are. You have all given me a ton of info I will need to start putting with the photo's so whoever get's them next won't be wondering about like I have! :lol:

I thought this one was a nice shot of probably the same gun pit of an earlier post I did that showed all four guns. Could someone please give me the official model of this type and any info on the uniform of the soldier. This is one I'd like to enlarge and add text.
h___Soldier_posing_with_large_calibre_Coastal_Artillery_piece_Same_soldier_by_small_Coastal_Artillery_piece_SMALLERcopy.jpg

Would this fit the above photo?
h___Round_for_Artillery_piece_in_carriage_copy.jpg

Also, If anyone would like a high resolution scan from any of these just let me know. I don't want to keep these all to myself!

#38 Wailuna

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 05:54 PM

...I thought this one was a nice shot of probably the same gun pit of an earlier post I did that showed all four guns....


That sure looks like a close-up of the same mortar pit shown in post #7. Different times, of course, as the mortars in #7 are in firing position, wheres this one is not. They are m1890MI 12-inch mortars (and the projectile and loading cart are consistent with this mortar):

m1890MI.jpg

You might post a side-by-side of the mortar pit in your post #7 along with this one to make for easier comparison of the pit details. I, for one, would also like to a high resolution scan of this one and the highest resolution crop of the soldier that you can manage without losing detail. He might be wearing insignia that will ID his unit.

Ft. Pickens in Pensacola is still a good contender as the locale of these two pictures, as well as many of the others posted here. Ft. Pickens had eight 12-inch m1890MI mortars at Battery Worth, which had two 4-mortar pits. Battery worth was active from 1899. Four of it mortars were removed in 1918 and the other four remained in service until 1942.

#39 Camp_Kearny

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:01 PM

I don't have the exact designation of the mortars and I cannot find it in my slim Coast Artillery reference section. I did find that they are 12" Mortars and the projectile weighed approximately 700 lbs. The idea behind them was that the projectile would be able to penetrate the thinner armor on the deck of a warship and detonate below. I believe the only mortar battery to see action was on Corregidor where the guns remain today. The only other 12" Mortars in existence are at Fort DeSota in St Petersburg, FL. The shell cart pictured was for the 12" Mortar.

Check out this link to youtube which shows a Mortar Battery in San Francisco during target practice.



#40 hhbooker2

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:02 PM

That sure looks like a close-up of the same mortar pit shown in post #7. Different times, of course, as the mortars in #7 are in firing position, wheres this one is not. They are m1890MI 12-inch mortars (and the projectile and loading cart are consistent with this mortar):

m1890MI.jpg

You might post a side-by-side of the mortar pit in your post #7 along with this one to make for easier comparison of the pit details. I, for one, would also like to a high resolution scan of this one and the highest resolution crop of the soldier that you can manage without losing detail. He might be wearing insignia that will ID his unit.

Ft. Pickens in Pensacola is still a good contender as the locale of these two pictures, as well as many of the others posted here. Ft. Pickens had eight 12-inch m1890MI mortars at Battery Worth, which had two 4-mortar pits. Battery worth was active from 1899. Four of it mortars were removed in 1918 and the other four remained in service until 1942.


GREETINGS & SALUTATIONS! Enlarged and lightened up the picture of the soldier next to the big gun! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif Sarge Booker of Tujunga, California ([email protected])

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Edited by hhbooker2, 22 September 2008 - 06:12 PM.


#41 CaptCav

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:18 PM

I have Good News; and Not So Good News, lol.

The Not So Good: Pensacola was hit by Hurricane Dennis in July 2005. According to the National Park Service website for Fort Pickens; the road from Pensacola Beach to Fort Pickens has not been re-opened. According to the website, it is a four hour hump (round trip). Guys - at this age, I ain't into forced marches in the hot sand. ;) Thus.... no on-site pix, for awhile.

The Good news: I've been playing around with the 3-D satellite pix online; and I am 99.9% certain I have located the area where the series of pix depicting the conical tents and disappearing battery are located.

For you hard corps guys who are REALLY into this thread (and want to see where the pix were taken), please PM me. I will provide instructions on viewing. I would post the instructions here; but the post would go on and on, as my pal Wailuna has discovered ("That sounds like a personal problem, Candidate!!!").

Edited by CaptCav, 22 September 2008 - 06:20 PM.


#42 Wailuna

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:27 PM

Here's a sneak preview of CaptCav's Ft. Pickens recon: A present day view of Battery Worth (link here). Good work, Scout!

#43 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 01:18 AM

Here's a sneak preview of CaptCav's Ft. Pickens recon: A present day view of Battery Worth (link here). Good work, Scout!

Appears to be little doubt about this location... especially when you turn the view south to look at the front. BTW, whats up with the junk yard?

#44 CaptCav

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:34 AM

I just saw Wailuna's response. VERY close, but noooo banana. He is showing Battery Worth. I believe the correct Battery is Cooper, which is just south of Worth. In Wailuna's satellite photo, if you take the hard top road that runs southwest from Battery Worth; very quickly you hit what I believe is the correct battery (Cooper). It is located where the road bends due west and there is a parking lot on the north side of the road.

Look carefully at the vintage pic on the forum. The location of the battery is very close to the shoreline, in relatively open dunes. Match. Look at the architecture (ie - precast concrete stairs on the east wall). Match. Also note there is still a disappearing rifle, mounted on the left (west) platform). If you rotate the sat pic, so you are looking east, the view matches perfectly.

Re: "What's with the junkyard?" I think that is a collecting area for debris, which washed over the island during Hurricane Dennis in 2005. The eye of the storm passed very close to this location; and smacked Pensacola. Pensacola NAS (due north) was devastated.

I'm going to be unavailable, most of today. As a result, I'm including the original PM I sent Wailuna, with directions to two different locations (seen in the vintage pix).

Here's the original PM to Wailuna:

Go to: http://maps.live.com

* Enter: Fort Pickens, FL

* Click on "Bird's eye View"

* See Route 399 (Ft Pickens Rd)? Travel west, all the way to the western
end of the island.

* There is a "U" shaped road (at the end of the island). The "old" Civil War Fort Pickens is just to the
right/east of the "U".

* Note the NW portion (closest to the big parking lot) of the old brick wall has been
removed. This was done in the 1890s, to
build the "new" battery, located on the parade ground inside the old fort
(SW corner - "modern" battery painted black).

* I believe that vintage pic on the forum (with conical tents & portion of old fort on R) was
taken in the vicinity of the NW corner of the old
fort, looking NE, into the old fort (after the portion of wall was
removed). I think all the conical tent pix were taken in
this area.

* Note ship landing, to the slight NW of the fort, in the vintage pix. You can see the ship's masts. If you look at the satellite pic, there it is, right where it should be.

NOW - for the disappearing batteries!!!

* Get on Rte 399/Ft Pickens Rd, just south of the southern wall of the old
fort.

* Head east on Rte 399. Very quickly, it crosses a series of drainage
ditches.

* Less than 1/2 mile, turn right (south) on first hard top road.

* After several hundred yards, road turns left (east). Note armored fire
control tower & parking area on the north side
(at turn). Just south of road (at the bend) is a battery with armored
turret guns. Keep going east.

* Continue east on hardtop road (several hundred yards) until you see a
second parking area on the north side of the
road. STOP!!!

* Look just south of the parking area. There they are!!! Note a
disappearing rifle is mounted on the left (west) and
the right gun is missing.

I believe the vintage pic of the disappearing gun was taken from the top of
the magazine, looking east (along the
beach) over what is now an empty gun position. If you look at the vintage pic in the Forum; then compare with the architecture in the satellite view, they match perfectly. If you rotate the satellite view, the landmarks match perfectly.

Hey!!!! NEVER doubt an aeroscout trooper's ability to find places, lol!!

Edited by CaptCav, 23 September 2008 - 05:42 AM.


#45 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 07:28 AM

Go to: http://maps.live.com

* Enter: Fort Pickens, FL

* Click on "Bird's eye View"

* See Route 399 (Ft Pickens Rd)? Travel west, all the way to the western
end of the island.

* There is a "U" shaped road (at the end of the island). The "old" Civil War Fort Pickens is just to the
right/east of the "U".

* Note the NW portion (closest to the big parking lot) of the old brick wall has been
removed. This was done in the 1890s, to
build the "new" battery, located on the parade ground inside the old fort
(SW corner - "modern" battery painted black).

* I believe that vintage pic on the forum (with conical tents & portion of old fort on R) was
taken in the vicinity of the NW corner of the old
fort, looking NE, into the old fort (after the portion of wall was
removed). I think all the conical tent pix were taken in
this area.

* Note ship landing, to the slight NW of the fort, in the vintage pix. You can see the ship's masts. If you look at the satellite pic, there it is, right where it should be.


I think you are referring to this battery?
http://maps.live.com...&...1&encType=1

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 23 September 2008 - 07:33 AM.


#46 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 07:45 AM

NOW - for the disappearing batteries!!!

* Get on Rte 399/Ft Pickens Rd, just south of the southern wall of the old
fort.

* Head east on Rte 399. Very quickly, it crosses a series of drainage
ditches.

* Less than 1/2 mile, turn right (south) on first hard top road.

* After several hundred yards, road turns left (east). Note armored fire
control tower & parking area on the north side
(at turn). Just south of road (at the bend) is a battery with armored
turret guns. Keep going east.

* Continue east on hardtop road (several hundred yards) until you see a
second parking area on the north side of the
road. STOP!!!

* Look just south of the parking area. There they are!!! Note a
disappearing rifle is mounted on the left (west) and
the right gun is missing.

I believe the vintage pic of the disappearing gun was taken from the top of
the magazine, looking east (along the
beach) over what is now an empty gun position. If you look at the vintage pic in the Forum; then compare with the architecture in the satellite view, they match perfectly. If you rotate the satellite view, the landmarks match perfectly.


And this is the gun placement you suggest: http://maps.live.com...&...1&encType=1

I remember those beaches well, got the worst sunburn of my life there, was stationed there in late 60's. When the say don't drive your car off the road onto the sand - they mean it... speaking from the voice of experience http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/pinch.gif

#47 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 08:28 AM

Look just south of the parking area. There they are!!! Note a
disappearing rifle is mounted on the left (west) and
the right gun is missing.

I believe the vintage pic of the disappearing gun was taken from the top of
the magazine, looking east (along the
beach) over what is now an empty gun position. If you look at the vintage pic in the Forum; then compare with the architecture in the satellite view, they match perfectly. If you rotate the satellite view, the landmarks match perfectly.


This imagine is from google earth - I think its the area your speaking of?

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#48 CaptCav

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 10:15 AM

"Roger that", on both postings, visible here (the middle posting won't open).

First post (old Fort Pickens). Right about where the words FORT PICKENS STATE PARK, is where I think the vintage photo showing the pinkish conical tents, was taken - looking NE, through the gap in the old fort brick walls (just above the black-painted battery, which opens on your post). The other conical pix were probably taken on the road that runs SW/NE (looking NE) on the west side of the old fort (which is also visible in the other vintage pix - on the right).

Third post. Battery Cooper. Your posting is looking SSW, towards the rear of the battery (located on the lower left side of the aerial view). In your case, the still mounted disappearing rifle is on the right (west) side. I believe the vintage pic was taken from the top of the magazine (square box between the 2 guns), looking to the left (east). If you rotate that Google Earth view to where you are looking due east, it's a match.

And yes, we locals ALWAYS laughed GLEEFULLY, when we spotted tourists, with their cars mired up to the axles!!! :P

Edited by CaptCav, 23 September 2008 - 10:26 AM.


#49 Wailuna

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 10:34 AM

I just saw Wailuna's response. VERY close, but noooo banana. He is showing Battery Worth. I believe the correct Battery is Cooper, which is just south of Worth. In Wailuna's satellite photo, if you take the hard top road that runs southwest from Battery Worth; very quickly you hit what I believe is the correct battery (Cooper). It is located where the road bends due west and there is a parking lot on the north side of the road.

Hey!!!! NEVER doubt an aeroscout trooper's ability to find places, lol!!

And my good friend and renowned aeroscout, CaptCav, is mixing oranges (Florida, of course) with bananas (Hawaii bananas are ono). Battery Worth was the only mortar emplacement at Ft. Pickens and it is Battery Worth to which I refer in post #38 and post #42. CaptCav's emplacement close to the beach (as shown by teufelhunde.ret in post #47) is Battery Cooper. I agree with CaptCav (and compliment him on his outstanding reconnaisance) that the beach terrain and shore line visible from Battery Cooper is a good match for what we see in post #17. The only problem I have with Battery Cooper is that its disappearing guns were 6-inch and the disappearing gun shown in post #17 doesn't look like a 6-inch gun to me. More research needed.

Here is a map (ca. 1921) that shows the relative position of Battery Worth and Battery Cooper, with the armament in place (ca. 1921):

Ft._Pickens_3.jpg

Note: Battery Worth and Battery Cooper were connected to Ft. Pickens main post by narrow gauge rail in 1921.

And here is Google Earth view of the two batteries as they are today:

Posted Image


Edited by Wailuna, 23 September 2008 - 10:40 AM.


#50 khaki

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 10:57 AM

Another shot of what might be the same gun as in the others I posted. Don't know if this shot might help to figure out the size. I have I think 2 more showing similar gun but have been unable to get photoshop to coroperate for some reason. Will post them ASAP. Thanks again for the awesome details everyone has provided!!
h___M1895MI_12_inch_rifle_on_the_M1901_disappearing_carriage_copy.jpg


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