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1875-1892 USMC shako plate


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#1 stucky151

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 04:30 PM

This guy went under the radar on ebay recently. You can see the faint outline of the EGA that is unfortunately missing. Note the drilled holes for sewing it to the cover once the three of the four attachement prongs had broken off.

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#2 stucky151

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 04:51 PM

The outline appears to be a P1892 EGA.

#3 Brig

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 04:55 PM

nice catch, I didn't see it unfortunately. I have a couple variants of these complete, and an emblem or two missing shields. You see a lot of variety with the star sizes



#4 warguy

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 04:56 PM

Nice one. Find the correct ega with loops and you are set. Kevin

#5 stucky151

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 05:04 PM

Just gotta keep digging through the Banmerman junk to find a good one!

#6 Brig

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 05:18 PM

They're out there and yes...I believe I got 2 loose EGA's and a complete set a few years back mixed in with a bunch of Bannerman's junk. The Bannerman's junk looks good on the office wall at work, though



#7 stucky151

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 05:32 PM

I was shocked I was the only bidder on it, I figured it would have attracted a lot of interested parties.

#8 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 18 July 2016 - 03:41 AM

Interesting to say the least, Nice uncommon example you have there. There are numerous other type of examples from era (including use on drum). Many can be found in Tim Klie's 352 page book USMC "eagle, globe and anchor emblem 1868-1963" it contains thousands of color pics! AND the only book endorsed by Colonel John Driscoll!

If you want to purchase the book, contact Tim for an author copy at [email protected]

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#9 usmcaviator

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 07:04 AM

These shields were not sewn on to a cover. They were attached to a dark blue felt shako via loops that were attached via lead solder.  The holes you see on your plate are most likely from being nailed to plaque by Bannermann's.The loops being knocked off also attest to this.  These were sometimes sold mounted as souvenirs with other military accoutrements by Bannermann's Military Surplus.  Not to say it isn't original, it is, but most likely original surplus.&   Bannermann's made many mods to the shields, including adding spiked like prongs, cutting new mounting holes for the EGA, probably were the ones responsible for painting them red, white and blue, and likely stamped shields as well from the Stokes Kirk die holdings.  The history of these shields, all variations and uses (including a neat 1875 officer shako shield variant) will be described in detail by Dr Fred Briuer in his upcoming book published by Schiffer entitled:  United States Marine Corps Emblems: 1804 to World War I.

Mike

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#10 Brig

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 02:11 PM

Holes or no holes, it's a good honest piece and sure nice to see instead of all those JessejamesGatorgirl crap on eBay every week



#11 stucky151

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Posted 20 July 2016 - 04:58 PM

The holes were just a guess, so any specualtion is good to hear. I couldnt understand why else they would be there and have seen other pieces not meant to be sewn, being sewn on. Im just glad its original, my only concern in buying these older pieces. As my collection grows, the missing pieces in my sites are all hard to find and the saving of money continues to grow waiting for the right piece.

#12 Brig

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Posted 21 July 2016 - 05:58 AM

Good thing you're saving, because the more your focus narrows, the more pricey it gets!



#13 vmicraig

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 05:39 PM

I see there are clearly some very different versions of the plates, with different hole placements and different dimensions. From what little I've read about them (I have yet to get my hands on either of the 2 books previously mentioned), my understanding is that the older versions were larger, whereas the latter century versions were smaller in dimension. Some are genuine used shields, whereas others are surplus that were never used and bought up by Bannermans, so may not have ever had holes punched, prongs soldered, etc.  

 

Additionally, when you look at eBay and other websites selling them, it seems you can't get  straight answer on exactly what model designator a particular shield is, nor the actual year produced or EGA/Bugle/other attachment that is supposed to go with the shield.

 

So here's my questions for you guys who know your shako plates/shields:

 

1. Were there truly set models number for each plate (M1854, M1858, M1872) and if so, is there a Marine Corps Uniform Reg that shows the specific model numbers with specific descriptions for each plate/shield as the regs do with weaponry?  

 

2. What differentiates the Bugle with "M" device containing the red felt backer from the one that has no backer behind the "M" ?

 

3. I see a lot of negative feedback on "Bannerman" items across forums and other websites, yet it seems that most of the Bannerman insignia were simply surplus scooped up after the war and are still "original", albeit not necessarily issued or used.  What's the rub with that as long as they are still original period pieces? Is it just that they may never have been "in the field?" (Note: I do know Bannerman piecemealed parts of different weapons and often stamped them to make them look more valuable, so I understand the issue when one bashes them on guns/swords, but not Marine Corps Shako plates in particular).

 

4. Lastly, I have 2 samples of plates I'm attaching photos of that I recently saw on eBay - I see the holes are different placement on each -  if these are indeed Bannermans surplus and therefore not necessarily used/issued, but at least period authentic, what models are they, or what device (Bugle/M; EGA) goes on them?   

 

Thanks, I look forward to your input.

 

s-l225-1.jpg s-l225.jpg



#14 Brig

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 05:48 PM

I believe Bannermans may have acquired the original dies, as well, and continued to churn out emblems as stocks of surplus were depleted. I find it incredibly unlikely that a manufacturer churned out the vast amount of pieces we see in advance with the small size of the Corps in the era. And even more so that it all would have been stored away for decades after they fell out of use, in bulk, rather than melted down and used in the making of other emblems they could profit on

 

As for the ones you posted, the shield on left is for an EGA, the loop attachments were located on the crossbar and head of the anchor

 

As for model numbers, I have seen nothing officially denoting a pattern number to any insignia, collectors dub the number by the date the patterns were approved/came into service.


Edited by Brig, 10 September 2016 - 05:49 PM.


#15 KurtA

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 10:58 AM

I believe Bannermans may have acquired the original dies, as well, and continued to churn out emblems as stocks of surplus were depleted. 

 

Bannermans did have various dies that they reused to make restrikes for collectors.  All the "original" Crossed Arrow/USS Scout insignia you see on Ebay are examples of some of their  restrikes.    No doubt they also had dies for USMC insignia.




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