Great Wing Opp- Pre-WWII "cloud shoulder" pattern wing

[mtnman]

Many of you may overlook this Wing simply because the ad pic looks like the usual WWII pilot wing. Not so, this is a rarer Wing indeed from the 1920s. It is a beautiful and detailed example and if you can get your hands on one it is a great find. The wing is being offered on eBay as of this evening July 14th 2016. It is a fine specimen with all the right accoutrements including a drop in catch for the pin.

[rustywings]

So true MtnMan! It really does have a beautiful and distinctive shoulder pattern unlike any other later WWII era made Pilot badge. Any ideas who produced them?

[mtnman]

Rustywings, I have looked in MANY places to try and discover the maker of these wings but fell flat. It is a magnificent design regarding the actual depth dimensions undulation of the curvatures across the face of the wing. The Shield itself is set in super imposition so as to stand out from the wings at the same depth Dimension as the shoulders High Point which gives an optical sensation of strength and respect. The lines dividing the Fletching and the separate fields of design are salient and unquestionable yet not overly complex. They are Grand in their perfect spacing and size dressed in simplicity. The plate Fletching on the shoulders reminds one the shoulder scale armor utilized by the Knights of old in overlapping scales... a design derived from the Great Designer in Nature's reptiles and fish. It fits here because Fletching upon the wing shoulder Birds seems to bear the same overlapping pattern. Exquisite workmanship indeed.

[bschwartz]

Always loved this pattern. The catch on the one on ebay looks like a replacement but still a beautiful wing.

[pfrost]

Some one PM the auction to me please....

 

Thanks

[pfrost]

never mind, I found it.

[mtnman]

I thought so too Bob but the PIN catch actually has all the correct characteristics of the original drop-in version catch used by this wing manufacturer. But it looks different in that the base of the pin catch does not have the dark shading that the original pin catch that I have on mine and have seen on the others. Interesting

[rustywings]

Back of the wing currently listed on ebay, with period catch replacement (Ebay #222187144509).

[rustywings]

Here's a poor quality cell phone image of an example with the original, oversize WWI style "drop-in" catch...

[5thwingmarty]

The wing of this type on Bob's website has the exact same catch as the one currently on ebay. There are enough differences that I don't think they are the same wing.

[B-17Guy]

I have two of these, one with an original pin and another with a period catch replacement.

John

[5thwingmarty]

I bid on but didn't win the wing that started this post, but was able to snag another one that popped up after that auction ended. Definitely one of the prettiest wings in my collection, but I was surprised it didn't weigh more. My other couple of 1920's pattern wings top the scale at 24-25 grams, and this wing only comes in tied for 7th with my Amico pilot wing at 19 grams.

 

I also find it interesting in that the earliest regulations for the Pilot Badges call for them to be 3-1/8" wide, and the earliest QM drawing says they should weigh 385 grains (equal to 25 grams). All of my 1920's pattern wings are exactly 3" wide, so they are all a bit short in width and this one is quite a bit short in weight.

 

 

[pfrost]

I made an offer on that second one as well. Oh well, next time.

 

Nice wing.

[mtnman]

Well done Marty! I truly appreciate these wings for the pattern but I must say, the grand pin assembly is a splendid accoutrement!! Either original pin assembly one receives on this pattern seems to be of the strong, parallel design attitude and massive silhouette (and even the period replacements.

[5thwingmarty]

In looking at these wings and comparing them to the others I have and those shown on Bob's website, I noticed some similarities in detail with some of the Meyer wings on Bob's site. In the shields, both wings have six raised bars for stripes and seven recessed ones without any raised details in the recesses. They are not exactly the same but very similar.

 

[5thwingmarty]

Next, both wings have very similar wing feathering details.

 

[5thwingmarty]

On the reverses, along the top edges there are areas on both wings where it almost look like they had double strikes.

 

[5thwingmarty]

In looking around on Bob's website and I found another wing in this pattern which makes me think they are all quite possibly just 40's vintage wings, not 20's or 30's vintage wings. He has an aircrew wing in this pattern there in this pattern. It has more feather details, but the shoulder feathers are exactly the same and it also has the large pin with the same drop in catch. Sorry I can't post the link here.

[5thwingmarty]

Yes that's one. I wish I could copy and paste to my posts here on this forum but it just won't let me.

[mtnman]

Wow that is a really cool wing! The process of putting this together as a whole took some very creative ingenuity. Is it actually listed as a theater made wing on the site? It took a lot of creativity and you can see what looks like theater made softness in the shoulders and of course the faint remains of the original STERLING on the rear of the original National seal roundel/escutcheon. I would love to see how this thing was put together! That took some serious Jewelers or metal worker's Talent. Thanks for bringing this one to The Forum Marty, I had not seen this one before.

[pfrost]

I'm not sure that this is a put together wing. At first, I looked to see if it was a hybrid wing, using a pilot or observer wing with the National Seal--you see a fair amount of that during WWII. But it looks like it is a one-piece wing.

 

I wouldn't have any doubts that the original wing is an early one (and until I saw the A/C wing in that pattern I would have been 100% positive), but sometimes we bandy about terms like "early 20's" with almost nothing factual to base it on. The fittings TEND to indicate an early wing, but again, I'm not so sure we can nail down the date, as some companies may have been using "old" findings.

 

A case in point is the dating of the USN Robbin wings. I suspect that we attribute many of those wings to MUCH earlier time periods than they really were used.

 

Thus, it is entirely possible that the pilot wings that started this thread was made in the 1920's but the fact that a similar pattern aircrewman wing (authorized in the early 40's) exists -- also with the "olden-tyme" findings, makes me wonder if this pilot wing doesn't actually come from much later?

 

Or it could be that they made the pilot wing in the 20's but then made a new die for the crewman wings in the 40's?

 

No matter what, both those wings are stunners.

 

P

[5thwingmarty]

After getting my wing and seeing how light it was, and seeing the raised Sterling mark, it seemed more like a 1940's wing than a 1920's wing. Stylistically it looks like it could be older and the pin and catch look more like 1920's or 1930's items, but my gut feeling is that it is 1940's vintage.

 

Marty

[rustywings]

Wow! Great info! The posting of that WWII era Air Crew badge, with that distinctive shoulder pattern matching the Pilot badge, is a real game-changer as far as my assumption of when that style of Pilot wing was made! Shared info like this really highlights the value of both this Forum... and Bob's outstanding website www.ww2wings.com ! Thank you all!

[pfrost]

Here are some things that I have learned about trying to differentiate between post WWI and pre WWII vintage pilot wings versus WWII and post WWII vintage pilot wings.

 

First, there are almost no absolutes, but I tend to follow some broad rules. An exceptions to these rules always seem to exist.

1) In some cases, you can track down manufacturers to being active during specific times and not others. Some early wing makers (e.g. Kinney Co) don't seem to have made any wings during WWII. Others, like NS Meyers, seem to have been making wings from WWI up until present time. Some patterns tend to be linked with earlier time frames of manufacture (such as the finely feathered Blackinton wings and the "1st pattern" LGB wings). But again, you tend to find overlaps here as well.

2) Pre WWII wings tend to be exactly 3 inches long, while WWII wings are closer to 3 1/4 inches.

3) Pelican beak wings are probably ALL WWII or post-WWII patterns, while the "Adams" design (or slick wings as some call them) were made from 1920'- on up.

4) If you look at the little spaces between the grills on a earlier pilot wing, they tend to be smooth, while later WWII vintage wings have fine parallel lines (not a 100% characteristic, but it happens frequently enough to be worthy of note).

5) Earlier wings tend to have more robust findings and pins. The "drop in-style" catch, "C-catch" and "Tiffany-style" catch are frequently seen on earlier wings, whereas the more commonly sen "underhook" catch seems to be a later type finding. Again, this isn't always 100%, but it also frequently something to note. The Tiffany catch is always a good sign for an early wing.

6) I have seen wings from the pre-war period that are massive, whilst I have also seen wings from the same period that are rather dainty and fine. During WWII the wings all sort of take on a similar heft, even if the patterns may vary. I don't think that size (other than the 3 inch rule) really differentiates between eras.

7) Remember that during the period right after WWI and almost up to 1942, the number of US Army pilots was rather low. I suspect that between those 20 years, there were probably no more than 10-20,000 pilots in total that were trained compared to the over 200,000 or so pilots trained during the 5 years of WWII. Just on those numbers, assuming every pilot got a wing, pre-WWII wings are going to be ~5-10% of all the wings awarded--or said another way, 90-95% of the wings we see are probably going to be of WWII vintage.

 

Then there is the fact that old stock and re-activation of old dies can mean that wings originally conceived in the 20's and 30's could have been available in WWII. Some of the Robbins-made USN wings appear to have come from old dies that were reconditioned and reused many years after the originals were made.

P

[5thwingmarty]

So I was browsing again on Bob's website and found another one of these pilot wings. He also has one shown with the WWII pilot wings. The interesting thing about this second one on his site is it looks to have the same incised Sterling mark as the aircrew wing in this pattern. All the other pilot wings seem to have the raised letter Sterling mark.