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USMC department devices, Gunner Bombs, WO bars and band lyres


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#76 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:28 PM

The next pair are identical to the last except the sword guard does not flare up (perhaps someone modified the last set or they were just bent?) and they have Tiffany clasps.  Also these devices both have the H-H eagle on the rear of the sword hilt.

DSC01775.jpg



#77 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:28 PM

Rears:

DSC01777.jpg



#78 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:54 PM

And, lastly, a boxed set of H-H / Imperial service devices, these are the same model as the ones in post 74 & 75.

DSC01778.jpg



#79 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:55 PM

And the cover:

DSC01779.jpg



#80 CUBUSMC

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:52 AM

What about the aviation insignia?  I do not see a lot written about it.  Was it just worn by cadets or did other officers wear it and in what capacity.  Also, how do you tell the difference between a Marine emblem and an AAC emblem.  Now I also know that MarCads wore the winged insignia in the 60 at Pensacola while going through flight training.  How can one tell these apart from earlier badges?  Just looking for a little knowledge.  Thanks - Jeff



#81 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:28 AM

Jeff,

I don't know much about the aviation insignia, that is the one type of device from the original board that I own none of.  I imagine that it was only worn by cadets as I haven't seen any photos of officers wearing them, but I could be wrong.  One could also pose the question to the Band Lyres as I know the Army also wore them.  There may be no difference in USMC / USA devices when it comes to lyres and cadet wings, but once again, I am unsure.  As far as dating older devices from newer ones, I would think the hallmarks might be a good indicator - I know many suppliers changed the format of their individual hallmarks over time.  Maybe someone with a deeper knowledge of this subject could shed some light on these questions.  Just need to wait for them to stumble across this thread!

S/F
Maddox



#82 roadrunner

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:42 AM

Hello
From the June 1943 National Geographic Magazine

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#83 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:50 AM

Thank you Michael!  I should have included that on the first page of the thread but I had forgotten about that reference!  Great to see the devices in color!  I think the only devices that I need to complete my collection are the matching mate to the earlier Paymaster device and also the silver and gold version of the same device.  Michael, you should post a few photos of your USMC Aide devices since that does also fall into this category.  I was not going to touch on them because I was pretty much following the original display as a template but the Aide devices would also be appropriate I think!



#84 roadrunner

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:08 AM

One more plate but I have no information when and from whom it was published.

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#85 roadrunner

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:14 AM

Erik

You posted in #20 a plate 26 from the 1937 Uniform Regulation but you forget to post the plate 28.

Michael

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#86 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:26 AM

Thanks Michael!  Maybe one of the mods can move it to the appropriate spot.  



#87 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:52 AM

From "United States Marine Corps Ranks & Grades, 1775-1969" published by the Marine Corps Historical Division:

In the National Defense Act of 19 August 1916, the warrant officer grades of Marine Gunner and Quartermaster Clerk were established (20 of each being authorized).  In 1918 the warrant rank Pay Clerk was also added.  On 10 June 1926, the Chief warrant ranks were created resulting in Chief Marine Gunner, Chief Quartermaster Clerk and Chief Pay Clerk.  The Marines holding Warrant ranks had to serve six years in grade and pass an examination to be promoted to the new Chief Warrant Officer rank.  With this new designation came the first of the Warrant Officer bars that would eventually evolve into the Warrant Officer ranks that we know today.  These ranks were abolished in WWII on 21 Oct 1943 and replaced them with Warrant Officer and Commissioned Warrant Officer. 

Interestingly, although the Adjutant and Inspector's department is mentioned in the reference, the rank itself is not.  They are seen in the 1917 revision of the 1912 Uniform Regulations so it would make sense that it was established around the same time as QM and Gunner.  I have not found the full text of the 1916 NDA so I cannot verify.  



USMC 1926 - 1943 Chief Warrant Officer bars.  They are first seen in the 1929 Marine Corps uniform regulations.

DSC01792.jpg

Reverse:

DSC01793.jpg

 



#88 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:53 AM

Here is the Chief Warrant Officer rank as shown in the 1929 regulations:

18010405_10100970643908868_1903617401308378596.jpg



#89 Justin B.

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:03 PM

What about the aviation insignia? I do not see a lot written about it. Was it just worn by cadets or did other officers wear it and in what capacity. Also, how do you tell the difference between a Marine emblem and an AAC emblem. Now I also know that MarCads wore the winged insignia in the 60 at Pensacola while going through flight training. How can one tell these apart from earlier badges? Just looking for a little knowledge. Thanks - Jeff

The winged propeller insignia was worn by aviation cadets from 1935 through (I think) early '43. Under the 1935 program, the aviation cadets (who were officially in the reserve) actually flew in operational squadrons for three years after their training, so they were sort of like "third lieutenants." The navy aviation cadets wore a half-width officer's stripe. After their four year commitment, they could be commissioned in the regular corps or navy.

After 1939, I think, they were commissioned after completing flight training. During the war, the USMC's aviation cadet program was absorbed into the navy's, with the Marines getting a certain share of graduates. At that time, the cadet insignia became just the navy line star without any stripe.

 

Interestingly, although the Adjutant and Inspector's department is mentioned in the reference, the rank itself is not.  They are seen in the 1917 revision of the 1912 Uniform Regulations so it would make sense that it was established around the same time as QM and Gunner.  I have not found the full text of the 1916 NDA so I cannot verify.

Here you go, "An act making appropriations for the naval service for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and seventeen, and for other purposes," August 29, 1916:
 
mar_wo_1916_act.jpg
 
 
Nice H&H CWO bars!
 
Justin B.

Edited by Justin B., 24 April 2017 - 03:15 PM.


#90 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:00 PM

So there is still no mention of A&I being established in the document...  Guess the hunt for that answer will continue!
 

 
Here you go, "An act making appropriations for the naval service for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and seventeen, and for other purposes," August 29, 1916:
 
Nice H&H CWO bars!
 
Justin B.

Those suckers were hard to find!  (and expensive once I did find them!)

Thanks Justin!



#91 Justin B.

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 05:32 AM

^I bet! It's interesting that even in 1937 when the lieutenant/captain bars changed to a smooth metal finish, the CWO bar was still specified with the false embroidered texture.

There was never a separate rank for A&I WOs. The Marine Corps designated some quartermaster clerks for the QM department and some for the A&I department, but they were all listed together as "Quartermaster Clerks."

Justin B.

#92 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:28 AM

There must be something somewhere in the orders that establishes the creation of the A&I insignia and sets forth the guidelines for QM's serving in that capacity.  


Edited by SgtMaddoxUSMC, 25 April 2017 - 07:29 AM.


#93 Justin B.

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:36 AM

There must be something somewhere in the orders that establishes the creation of the A&I insignia and sets forth the guidelines for QM's serving in that capacity.


Hmmm, well, the A&I, QM and Pay insignia were for commissioned officers before they were for WOs and CWOs, and the officers didn't have any "extra" designation. There may have been written guidelines somewhere, but it could be as simple as wearing the device appropriate to current assignment.

Justin B.

#94 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 04:39 AM

Here is a photo of Colonel Cyrus S. Radford wearing dress QM devices on his standing collar.  This is from the May 1918 issue of Recruiter's Bulletin.

Radford Recruiters Bulletin May 1918.jpg




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