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USMC department devices, Gunner Bombs, WO bars and band lyres


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#1 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 05:52 AM

So a few years ago, this awesome display board sold on ebay and I have regretted everyday not bidding higher on it.  I decided that I would attempt to do my own version and have been putting together as many pieces over the years since that I can.  Here is the one that inspired me:
warrantofficerinsignia.jpg



#2 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 05:54 AM

And here is what I have put together so far:
DSC00283b.jpg



#3 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 05:59 AM

DSC00285b.jpg



#4 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:00 AM

DSC00284b.jpg



#5 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:12 AM

Here is where I need help.  With the department devices, obviously the 1908-1927 and 1927-1946 Paymaster insignia were produced in both left and right sides.  (see the image below for other variations of the '08-'27) but when it comes to Quartermaster and Adjutant devices, I have only ever seen right collars (save for the top pair of all-gold QMs).  Has ANYONE ever seen either a dress or service QM insignia for the LEFT side?  Either by itself or on a shoulder knot?  How about the Adjutant?  The board in the first post only displays one side for each device (even the ones we know there were two sides for).  In all the photos I have looked at and thread here I have gone through, I cannot find left side QM or Adj pins.  Any thoughts at all?

(here are the other '08-'27 PM's so you can see both left and right sides...  also these were made in silver!)
08-27PM.jpg



#6 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:15 AM

Here are some HH made carded L-R sets of the '27-'46 Paymasters:
27-46PM.jpg



#7 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 06:46 AM

All of the specifications within the orders as well as the uniform plates, don't specify if the devices are to be made in left-right pairs. 

Also, on a side note, if anyone has any of these department devices and is willing to sell, please PM me!  ALSO LOOKING FOR '26-'43 CWO BARS!!! (see below image!)
warrantofficerinsignia3.jpg



#8 Justin B.

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 08:12 AM

I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure the PM Dept. were the only ones that the regs specified in mirrored pairs, QM and A&I were not. AFAIK the PM with the silver leaf was the only authorized version, I don't know what the gold ones are.

 
The QM was the only one with different versions for commissioned (gold) and warrant (sliver).
 
The original display is really nice, but I think it has a couple of errors. The gold/blue bars listed as 1943-1944 are really USN 1951-1954. The USMC only used the gold/red bars 1943-1954. The silver/gold and red W-1 through W-4 bars should be "1954-current." 
 
Really nice display you've got going, too!
 
Justin B.

 



#9 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 02:18 PM

Was anyone here the bidder who actually won the board in the first image?



#10 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 07:06 PM

Here is the uniform plate from the 1912 regulations:

1912 devices.jpg



#11 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 07:42 PM

Page 58 of the 1912 Regulations describes the devices as follows:

DEPARTMENTAL DEVICES.  (Pl. 25.)

167. The distinctive devices for the various staff departments of the Marine Corps shall be as follows:

Adjutant and inspector's department. - This device shall consist of a Marine Corps gold sword in miniature and gold fasces crossed and surmounted by a silver wreath, in the center of which shall be a gold shield of thirteen bars with field above containing one large and twelve small stars.  The dimensions shall be: Full length of sword, 1 3/8 inches; full length of fasces, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wreath, 3/4 of an inch outside, 1/2 of an inch inside; shield the full size of the inside of the wreath.

Quartermaster's Department. - This device shall consist of a Marine Corps gold sword in miniature and a gold key crossed and surmounted by a gold wheel with a blue enamel ring set with 13 gold stars.  The dimensions shall be: Length of sword, 1 3/8 inches; length of key, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wheel, 3/4 of an inch.

Paymaster's Department. - This device shall consist of a Marine Corps gold sword in miniature and a gold quill pen crossed and surmounted by a silver oak leaf and two acorns.  The dimensions shall be: Length of sword, 1 3/8 inches; length of quill pen, 1 3/8 inches; length of leaf from stem to tip, 1 1/8 inches; width of leaf from tip to tip, 3/4 of an inch,  The devices for the Paymaster's Department shall be made in rights and lefts.

These devices shall be worn with the full-dress, undress, and mess dress uniforms; and for the field uniforms and overcoat they shall be of the same size and description but of dull-finish bronze metal.



#12 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:02 PM

Here is a page from Colonel Dion Williams' book "Army and Navy Uniforms and Insignia 1918":

Department Devices - Col Dion Williams - Army and Navy Uniforms and Insignia 1918.jpg



#13 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:15 PM

From Colonel Williams' book, page 158:

In order to designate the different departments to which the officers of the Staff of the Marine Corps belong distinctive Departmental Devices are provided to be worn with all uniforms.

Adjutant and Inspector's Department. - The distinctive device for this department consists of a miniature Marine Corps sword and fasces crossed in gold surmounted by a wreath in silver, in the center of which is a shield of thirteen bars id red and white enamel with the field in blue enamel containing one large and twelve small gold stars; the dimensions being, length of sword and fasces one and three-eighths inches, diameter of wreath three-quarters of an inch.

Quartermaster's Department. - The distinctive device of this department consists of a miniature Marine Corps sword and a key crossed in gold surmounted by a gold wheel with a blue enamel rim set with thirteen fold stars, the dimensions being, length of sword and key one and three-eighths inches, diameter of wheel three-quarters of an inch.

Paymaster's Department. - The distinctive device of this department consists of a miniature Marine Corps sword and a quill pen crossed in gold surmounted by an oak leaf and two acorns in silver, the dimensions being, length of sword and quill one and three-eighths inches, length of leaf one and one-eighth inches.

With special full dress, full dress and blue mess dress uniforms these distinctive devices of the Staff Departments and worn on the top of the shoulder knot at the center; with white mess dress, blue undress, white undress, summer field and winter field uniforms they are worn on each side of the collar in rear of the corps device; and with the overcoat they are worn on the shoulder straps above the insignia of rank.  

For wear with the summer field and winter field uniforms and with the overcoat the Departmental devices are of the same size and design as for the other uniforms above described but are made of dull finish bronze metal.

(on page 160)
 

Quartermaster Clerks wear the distinctive device of the Quartermaster's Department, in gold and enamel for the blue and white undress coats and in dull finish bronze for the summer field and winter field coats and the overcoat. These devices are worn on both sides of the collar of the undress and field coats and on the shoulder straps of the overcoat.


#14 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:25 PM

Here is Plate 34 from the 1922 Uniform Regulations:

1922 devices.jpg



#15 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:47 PM

And the text from the 1922 regulations, from pages 87 and 88:
 

467. Insignia, Adjutant and Inspector's Department, bronze (fig. ). - To be made of dull-finish bronze metal, and to consist of a Marine Corps sword crossed with fasces, surmounted by a wreath which encircles a shield of 13 bars, side points and base point of shield touching inside of wreath, field above bars to contain one large star in center and 12 small stars. Full length each of sword and of fasces, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wreath, three-fourths inch outside and one-half inch inside. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening.
 
468. Insignia, Adjutant and Inspector's Department, gold and silver (fig. ). - To consist of a gold Marine Corps sword crossed with gold fasces, surmounted by a silver wreath which encircles a gold shield of 13 bars, side points and base point of shield touching inside of wreath; field above bars to contain one large star in center and 12 small stars. Full length each of sword and of fasces, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wreath, three-fourths inch outside and one-half inch inside. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening.
 
469. Insignia, Paymaster's Department, bronze (fig. ). - To be made of dull-finish bronze metal and consist of a Marine Corps sword crossed with a quill pen, surmounted by an oak leaf and three acorns. Full length each of sword and of quill pen, 1 3/8 inches; length of leaf from stem to tip, 1 1/8 inches; width of leaf from tip to tip, three-fourths inch. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening. To be made in pairs, right and left.

470. Insignia, Paymaster's Department, gold and silver (fig. ). - To consist of a gold Marine Corps sword crossed with a gold quill pen, surmounted by a silver oak leaf and three acorns. Full length each of sword and of quill pen, I 3/8 inches; length of leaf from stem to tip, 1 1/8 inches; width of leaf from tip to tip, three-fourths inch. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening. To be made in pairs, right and left.

471. Insignia, Quartermaster's Department, bronze (fig. ). - To be made of dull-finish bronze metal and consist of a Marine Corps sword crossed with a key, surmounted by a wheel, rim of wheel set with 13 stars, each star in line with a spoke. Full length each of sword and key, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wheel, three-fourths inch. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening.
 
472. Insignia, Quartermaster's Department, gold (fig. ), commissioned officers. - To consist of a gold Marine Corps sword crossed with a gold key, surmounted by a gold wheel with blue-enamel rim set with 13 gold stars, each star in line with a spoke. Full length each of sword and key, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wheel, three-fourths inch. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening.

473. Insignia, Quartermaster's Department, silver (fig. ), quartermaster clerks. - To consist of a silver Marine Corps sword crossed with a silver key, surmounted by a silver wheel with blue-enamel rim set with 13 silver stars, 'each star in line with a spoke. Full length each of sword and key, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wheel, three-fourths inch. To have vertical clasp pin or screw fastening.


#16 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:50 PM

NOTE:  Interestingly, the earlier regulations describe the paymaster devices as only having two acorns, the writers seemingly overlooking the acorn on the top of the device which almost looks like part of the leaf.  It is not until the 1922 regulations which it is properly described as having three acorns instead of two.



#17 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:32 PM

Here is a clip from a Bailey, Banks & Biddle (commonly abbreviated BB& B) catalog from 1928, with prices:
It still shows the earlier style paymaster device so they were still selling this type after 1927 like the board in post 1
shows.  Also, interesting to note, the Paymaster device is offered in plain silver (which I cannot find any description of in the regulations) as well as silver and gold.  The catalog does not seem to mention either the Quartermaster of Adjutant / Inspector's dress devices.  

Another observation which is of interest, is the gold paymaster devices which I showed in Post 5 don't seem to mentioned anywhere in any of the regulations that I have found.  Curiouser and curiouser...  Anyone have any ideas??

1928 BBB Catalog USMC Department Insignia.png


 



#18 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 09:36 PM

Here is plate 34 from the 1929 uniform regulations:
You can see the new style paymaster devices.

1929 devices.jpg


Edited by SgtMaddoxUSMC, 28 December 2016 - 09:36 PM.


#19 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:06 PM

And starting on page 105 from the 1929 regulations:

463. Insignia, Adjutant and Inspector's Department, dress (fig. 57). - To consist of a gold sword crossed with gold fasces, surmounted by a silver wreath encircling a gold shield.  Measurements, etc., to be as specified for corresponding service insignia (par. 464).

464. Insignia, Adjutant and Inspector's Department, service (fig. 58). - To be made of dull-finish bronze metal throughout, and to consist of a sword crossed with fasces, surmounted by a wreath encircling a shield.  Measurements, etc. - Sword to be made of Marine Corps officers' type, with sword knot, and be incased in scabbard; shield to have 13 bars and field above stars to contain one large star in center and 12 small stars, side points and base point of shield to touch inside of wreath.  Full length each of sword and of fasces, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wreath, 3/4 inch outside and 1/2 inch inside.  To have vertical clasp pin, or screw or clutch fastener, as may be most suitable for the purpose for which insignia are required.

465. Insignia, Paymaster's Department, dress (fig. 59). - To consist of a silver sword crossed with a silver quill pen, surmounted by a wreath of oak leaves and acorns in gold, upper leaves having the midrib in scarlet enamel, wreath to encircle a diamond of scarlet enamel edged with gold and bearing a design in gold of oak leaves with two acorns. Measurements, etc., to be as specified for corresponding service insignia (par. 466).

466. Insignia, Paymaster's Department, service (fig. 60). - To be made of dull-finish bronze metal throughout, and to consist of a sword crossed with a quill pen, surmounted by a wreath of oak leaves and acorns, wreath to encircle diamond bearing a design of oak leaves and two acorns.  Measurements, etc. - Sword to be made of Marine Corps officers' type, with sword knot, and be incased in scabbard; side points of diamond to rest upon inside edge of wreath and center of diamond to cover point of crossing of sword and pen.  Full length each of sword and of pen, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wreath, 3/4 inch outside and 1/2 inch inside; diamond to measure 11/32 inch in height and 9/16 inch in width.  To be made in pairs, right and left, by reversing position of sword and pen and of oak-leaf design on diamond.  To have vertical clasp pin, or screw or clutch fastener, as may be most suitable for the purpose for which insignia are required.

 

467. Insignia, Quartermaster's Department, dress (gold) (fig. 61). - Commissioned officers and commissioned warrant officers. - To consist of a gold sword crossed by a gold key, surmounted by a gold wheel with blue-enamel rim set with 13 gold stars.  Measurements, etc., to be as specified for corresponding service insignia (par. 469).

468. Insignia, Quartermaster's Department, dress (silver) (fig. 62). - quartermaster clerks. - To consist of a silver sword crossed by a silver key, surmounted by a silver wheel with blue-enamel rim set with 13 gold stars.  Measurements, etc., to be as specified for corresponding service insignia (par. 469).
 

469. Insignia, Quartermaster's Department, service (fig. 63). - To be made of dull-finish bronze metal throughout, and to consist of a sword crossed with a key, surmounted by a wheel, rim of wheel set with 13 stars.  Measurements, etc. - Sword to be made of Marine Corps officers' type, with sword knot, and be incased in scabbard; wheel to have 13 spokes, and each star on rim to be in line with a spoke.  Full length each of sword and key, 1 3/8 inches; diameter of wheel, 3/4 inch.  To have vertical clasp pin, or screw or clutch fastener, as may be most suitable for the purpose for which insignia are required.


Edited by SgtMaddoxUSMC, 28 December 2016 - 10:14 PM.


#20 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:08 PM

Finally, the 1937 regulations plate 26:

1937 devices.jpg



#21 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:14 PM

The 1937 regulations described starting on page 81 are the same as the 1929 regulations, but omit the silver dress Quartermaster Clerk insignia.



#22 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:23 PM

Next I will show some close-ups of pieces in my collection as well as some photos I have found online..

First here is a close-up of the strange, "BB&B G.FILLED" pre-1929 Paymaster devices.

FRONT:
DSC01131.jpg



#23 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:24 PM

REAR:
DSC01130.jpg



#24 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:29 PM

Next, the single pre-1929 service Paymaster device "BB&B BRONZE".  Interesting to note it was seemingly both stamped and the pin was affixed upside down.  Also, whereas all the other devices of this set have an opening in between the sword and knot, this one does not.
FRONT:
DSC01123.JPG

 



#25 SgtMaddoxUSMC

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 10:31 PM

REAR:  (seems to have numbers scratched into it... ( 134 / 29 93 ) ?
DSC01124.JPG

 




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