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WWII Summer Tunic with Canadian Jump Wings


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#51 McDermut99

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:17 AM

I personally am not getting a very good feeling about the uniform. I believe that this may have been a put together from a theatre department of a school or small college. I have personally seen two examples of similar uniforms, where they get some us insignia, and then stick on whatever looks "good".

 

Then again I could be wrong, and this uniform could in fact be legitimate. But I don't feel comfortable about it unless there was a name to it that could be researched.



#52 Gunslinger

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 05:03 AM

Has signs of a put together or fantasy uniform in my opinion, showing many inconsistencies related to Commonwealth service.

 

Awarded a Africa, Italy with France and Germany Stars? Sounds like Fantasy rather then Reality, this soldier having served in all major campaigns is highly unlikely. Not to mention the Campaign Star ribbons are missing devices as pointed out by Allan.

 

The 1st CANPARA Wing Brevet is definitely not of WWII origin as is of Post War design. Some believe including myself these were made by Patch King in the late 1940's. The 1st design Wings were English made on a Dark Green base color with black cloth backing.

 

As for the suggestion he had served with SOE prior, this is pure speculation. Since the SOE, Special Forces and Jegburghs were known to wear the RAF Parachute Qualification Wing Brevet.

 

 

CDub



#53 Klaxon

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 06:29 AM

Has signs of a put together or fantasy uniform in my opinion, showing many inconsistencies related to Commonwealth service.

 

Awarded a Africa, Italy with France and Germany Stars? Sounds like Fantasy rather then Reality, this soldier having served in all major campaigns is highly unlikely. Not to mention the Campaign Star ribbons are missing devices as pointed out by Allan.

 

The 1st CANPARA Wing Brevet is definitely not of WWII origin as is of Post War design. Some believe including myself these were made by Patch King in the late 1940's. The 1st design Wings were English made on a Dark Green base color with black cloth backing.

 

As for the suggestion he had served with SOE prior, this is pure speculation. Since the SOE, Special Forces and Jegburghs were known to wear the RAF Parachute Qualification Wing Brevet.

 

 

CDub

Hi CDub,

You may be right but as stated before why? I bought it at a show in the US for a song. Just seems strange that if one were going to put together an Alpha jacket why like this?

 

The stars are not missing any devices. The Africa Star has the Rosette which is this case would denote 18th Army Group which was made up of several allied nations.

 

Again you are correct that it the brevet is post war as already pointed out by Ken Joyce (Force136). Patch King patches do have the cheese cloth mesh backing so they could well be the maker. There are black wool backed english made versions as well.

Check out Ken's books on the subject. He is an expert on Canadian Jump Wings amongst other things having published several books on the subject which you may already own. I've shown some of them here.

Check them out.

 

Thanks for the insight.

Cheers,

Matt

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Edited by Klaxon, 09 September 2016 - 06:30 AM.


#54 Gunslinger

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 07:18 AM

Here's a link you may find useful related to the Commonwealth Awards

 

https://www.forces-w...ds.co.uk/medals

 

CDub



#55 Klaxon

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 06:01 AM

[quote name="Gunslinger" post="2211034" timestamp="1473434283"]

Here's a link you may find useful related to the Commonwealth Awards
 
https://www.forces-w...ds.co.uk/medals
 
CDub[/quote

Hi CDub,
Thanks for the link. I've been on this site before when searching to identify ribbons that I'm not familiar with. Very useful.
The criteria for qualification on here are pretty indepth. Interesting it says min. time in theatre to recieve the Italy Star was only 1 day.
Cheers,
M

#56 Joop de Lange

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 01:28 PM

I am not getting a good feeling about this uniform at all. He has the Africa Star, Italy Star, France and Germany Star, 1939-45 Star, Defense Medal, and War Medal. He also served in Alaska (don't think that rates as a combat patch) and spent a year and a half overseas. That is a lot of activity for one man, four theaters and two different Armies.

 

i agree, its not possible

 

cheers joop



#57 Joop de Lange

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 01:32 PM

Definitely odd.  Here are some thoughts:

 

-Service in Alaska during WWII did in fact rate a combat patch and overseas stripes, but that doesn't really help explain this jacket very much.

 

-Awarding of UK campaign medals to Americans was extremely limited, and when it did occur (such as Ike receiving the Africa Star), it was not the full assortment seen here.  So I think the assumption that the Canadian and Commonwealth medals were awarded to a US GI is unfounded.  Now an American who enlisted in the Canadian military?  Thats much more likely but also a different circumstance.  

 

-To qualify for this rather wide assortment of UK medals this guy had to meet at least the following:

      1) Have voluntarily enlisted in the Canadian military

      2) Served in North Africa BEFORE May 1943 (which makes being a FSSF/Kiska vet somewhat less likely)

      3) Served in France or Germany AFTER 6 June 1944

      4) Served in Italy at some point

      5) Served at least 6 months in the UK at some point during the war

               ..... and at some point he was in the US Army in Alaska?   :unsure:  If a FSSF guy, why on earth would you choose this over the arrowhead patch??

 

-He also had what looks to be 8 US ribbons on this uniform.  Thats a lot for the vast majority of WWII vet, especially relatively junior ones.  

 

-The "buck sergeant" rank on this uniform was discontinued from 1948 to 1956, while the quad collar brass configuration was only worn from after WWII until early in the Korean War (i.e. at nearly the same time the three stripe Sergeant rank was NOT worn).  So that would narrow the window quite a bit if we assume this guy was following basic regulations (which of course we know did not always happen).

 

-He shows 3 overseas stripes, but no service stripe.  Unlikely (but not impossible) to earn 8 ribbons in less than three years.  

 

Despite these questions I think it is a fascinating uniform, I would have been tempted to buy it myself.   As weird as it is, it doesn't scream "put together" to me, mostly because I can't understand why someone would.  

 

we would says this is a walts jacket.

 

cheers Joop



#58 Joop de Lange

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 01:56 PM

I've sat back and observed on this jacket since it was first posted. At first, I just chuckled and thought to myself that this was an odd one for sure. After reading through the now two pages of posts, I figure, why not jump in myself? I, like everyone else, find the uniform to be very unusual, and I just have to keep scratching my head when it comes to the oddities that I see. For me, the most obvious anomaly that I see to the uniform is the British/ Canadian ribbons that are sewn to the blouse. I think that they were added by somebody who has no knowledge of British medals. Having collected British and Commonwealth RAF and airborne for years, I have consistently seen "the real deal" and when oddities pop up, big alarm bells go off in my head. For starters, the ribbons are in the wrong order. I know, all of you US collectors are going to shrug your shoulders and say "what's the big deal? US ribbons are out of order all of the time!" Yes, US ribbons are typically out of order, and that is normal. It is NOT however the least bit normal to see ribbons out of order on the uniforms of serving British and Commonwealth forces. Americans didn't know the proper order for campaign ribbons, and a lot of them came out late in the war. British forces on the other hand wore their ribbons regularly and not having them in proper order would have incurred the wrath of the regimental sergeant major or other subaltern. So, let's look at these ribbons on this uniform. I am giving you a link here to a website that will QUICKLY explain the ribbons and when I quote, I am referencing this site-  http://www.petergh.f2s.com/medals.htm The first ribbon on the rack is the Canadian Volunteer Service ribbon with maple leaf device for foreign service. This would have been the last ribbon on the rack, as it was a territorial medal and not a medal prescribed by mother England.
As there are no decorations in the group, the first ribbon should have been the 1939-45 Star, which is the second ribbon here. The next campaign in order of precedence is the Africa Star. NOW GET THIS- SOLDIERS of the British army wore a silver NUMERAL on the ribbon- either a "1" or an "8" to denote the British army in which they served in North Africa, Abyssinia, Somaliland, Eritrea, and Malta, between 10 June 1940 and 12 May 1943. This ribbon doesn't have a numeral, it has a rosette. How can that be? Well, it is possible. Regulations state "A silver rose emblem is worn on the ribbon by personnel of the Royal Navy Inshore Squadron and Merchant Navy vessels which worked inshore between 23 October 1942 and 12 May 1943, and by personnel of the RAF serving between the same dates. Staff of the 18 Army Group Headquarters who served between certain specified dates under a specified General also qualify." It is most likely that if this man earned a rosette, he did so in the navy or merchant marine.
The next ribbon that SHOULD be in line is the Italy Star, but the next ribbon on this uniform is the France and Germany Star. The Italy Star was awarded for "operational service on land in Sicily, mainland Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, the Aegean and the Dodecanese, Corsica, Sardinia, and Elba, at any time during the campaign from 11 June 1943 (capture of Pantelleria) to 8 May 1945. Service in Sicily after 17 August 1943; in Sardinia, after 19 September 1943; or in Corsica, after 4 October 1943, did not count."
So, our Canadian hero puts the France and Germany Star before the Italy Star, but the bloke would have been getting these ribbons as he earned them, rather than getting a bunch of ribbons all at once like what happened to most American troops (which is why we had confusion on the ribbons). The France and Germany Star was awarded "for operational service in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, or Germany, between 6 June 1944 and 8 May 1945."
I'm not going to worry about the Defence Medal or the War Medal of 1939-1945. They are pretty obvious. The last ribbon is the biggest puzzler of all. It appears to be that of the Inter-allied Victory ribbon which was given to a lot of soldiers at the end of World War I Are we to assume that the soldier was claiming WWI service? What would be the reasoning for adding the ribbon? To me, the answer is that a WWII veteran would not have worn it. A collector adding ribbons to a uniform? Why not? Maybe they needed one more ribbon to even out the bars? Also, why would the British ribbons be sewn on and not put on a bar? British uniform regulations prescribed that the ribbons be sewn to the uniform. The ribbons were issued as a piece of cloth, so the only way to put them on a bar would be to find a bar and stitch them on. Last point- even Canadian soldiers serving in the First Special Service Force, were not being awarded US ribbons, just as US soldiers in the Force were not receiving British ribbons. There were some awards of decorations that crossed over from the Canadians to the US and vice versa (mainly to officers), but NOT campaign medals. Getting tired of reading yet? OK, I'll stop, but I can go on if anyone wants to cling to the hope that this is anything other than a fantasy piece.

 

Allan

thanks for this clear explain, im from the Netherlands and im intressted in the 1 CPB and i see also some diffrence int he medals and ribbons they worn on theyre uniform.

 

greetings Joop




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