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Has anyone seen legitimate bills of sale for USGI weapons to individual soldiers?


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#1 El Bibliotecario

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:02 PM

On various internet gun forums one often see statements such as "mah grandpa (father, uncle, or whatever) bought his gun when he left the service." The weapon in question is usually a handgun, and I've always suspected that in an era when weapons accountibility was no where near as stringent as in the modern military, grandpa simply stole the weapon and sugar coated the facts for posterity.

I believe general officers were at one time allowed to purchase the Colt .32 issued to them. I know the DCM sold large numbers of weapons to civilians, just as the CMP is selling such weapons today. In the postwar era if a soldier lost a weapon, there would be a cash collection sheet or a statement of charges presented to that individual--along with punitive disciplinary action to discourage such behavior.

I'm not interested in any of the above documents. What I'm wondering is if anyone has ever seen a legitimate receipt from the military (not the DCM or CMP) transferring a USGI weapon directly to an individual soldier--as opposed to reimbursing the military for a lost weapon. I'm curious to know if my suspicions about these alleged sales can be refuted with facts.

#2 bigredone

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:04 PM

I've seen a small mimeographed document from the US navy given the sailors, allowing them one or more souvenirs while still in the Pacific. I think this was the navy distributing captured Japanese equipment.

#3 El Bibliotecario

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:16 PM

I've seen a small mimeographed document from the US navy given the sailors, allowing them one or more souvenirs while still in the Pacific. I think this was the navy distributing captured Japanese equipment.


Good point. In his memoir ORDNANCE WENT UP FRONT Roy Dunlop, an NCO in the 1st Cav Div's Ordnance Bn confirms that copious amounts of japanese small arms were distributed to GIs in japan shortly after the end of hostilities. And of course there was a standard form used for individuals to ship or transport enemy weapons captured in combat back to the US.

Thanks for mentioning captured material--*laff*--so I can emphasize that I'm not interested in enemy weapons, only USGI weapons owned by the govt.

#4 cwnorma

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 03:17 PM

I own a Colt M1903 .38 revolver that I bought from the Daughter of the original owner. I have the original 1918 Bill of Sale from the Ordnance Officer. The bill of sale does not list the serial number of the pistol, but it is an Army Marked M1903. The bill of sale only lists the pistol, holster, belt, clip pouch, and 100 rds.

In 1918, the price for the revolver was $11.00

It is printed on onion skin paper, so I can see why survival would be so small.

Chris

#5 Charlie Flick

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 08:01 PM

What I'm wondering is if anyone has ever seen a legitimate receipt from the military (not the DCM or CMP) transferring a USGI weapon directly to an individual soldier--as opposed to reimbursing the military for a lost weapon. I'm curious to know if my suspicions about these alleged sales can be refuted with facts.


El B:

See the attached Requisition and Invoice/Shipping Document for the US Property Ruger Mark I .22LR Automatic Pistol in my collection.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/Ordnanceguy/US%20Auto%20Pistols/RugerMark1ArmyDispositionRecord.jpg

#6 El Bibliotecario

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 10:27 AM

I found both replies very interesting--thanks for taking the time to respond.

Mr. F~
Your DD Form 1149-3 is for all practical purposes the same form as the DD 1149-4 accompanying a DCM weapon I purchased years ago. Both forms cite AR 700-100 (yours adds the remark about NRA sales) as the authority.

I'd be _really_ interested to see an example of a receipt from the 40's--but that may be hoping for too much. I suppose if I really want a definitive answer to my question I need to research a set of ARs from the '40s, and I'm not that ambitious.

Again, thanks for your responses.

#7 artu44

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:28 AM

I found both replies very interesting--thanks for taking the time to respond.

Mr. F~
Your DD Form 1149-3 is for all practical purposes the same form as the DD 1149-4 accompanying a DCM weapon I purchased years ago. Both forms cite AR 700-100 (yours adds the remark about NRA sales) as the authority.

I'd be _really_ interested to see an example of a receipt from the 40's--but that may be hoping for too much. I suppose if I really want a definitive answer to my question I need to research a set of ARs from the '40s, and I'm not that ambitious.

Again, thanks for your responses.

Hi Bib, I remember very well something typewrited authorizing a soldier to take with him a gun signed by his officer. It was maybe a couple of years ago maybe on MCF. Hope some buddy can remember it.

#8 cwnorma

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:36 AM

I own a Colt M1903 .38 revolver that I bought from the Daughter of the original owner. I have the original 1918 Bill of Sale from the Ordnance Officer. The bill of sale does not list the serial number of the pistol, but it is an Army Marked M1903. The bill of sale only lists the pistol, holster, belt, clip pouch, and 100 rds.

In 1918, the price for the revolver was $11.00

It is printed on onion skin paper, so I can see why survival would be so small.

Chris


BOS.JPG


The Bill of Sale is the document on the left.

#9 cwnorma

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:39 AM

Here is an enhanced version of the Bill of Sale. I don't have a scanner, so I took a photograph, and upped the contrast so you could see it better.

BOS1.JPG


Chris

#10 cwnorma

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:55 AM

The document says:


Form 147
STATEMENT OF ORDNANCE STORES PURCHASED

(cut off) Camp A. A. Humpheys, Va, Arsenal, December 17, 191
(cut off) ron W. Hxxxx, 1st Lt. Engrs. USA.,
Camp A.A. Humphreys, Va.

(cut off) shipped to ------------ (blank) -----------------
(cut off) hority: A. R. 1520

Quantity / Article / Price
1 / Revolver, Colt , Cal.38 / 11.00
100 / Cartridges, Revolver, Cal.38 / 1.08
1 / Holster, Revolver cal.38 / 1.76
1 / Belt, m.1912/wo saber rings for pist.or rev. / 1.44
1 / Pocket Revolver Clip, M,1917 / .60


Shipment made ------(blank)-----------Sale Completed---Dec.17,1918---
To be signed nad returned to the Commanding Officer,
I certify that I have purchased the above articles from Richard J. Kxxx, Captain, Ord. Dept., U.S.A., that I have paid for them the sum of 15.88 and that they are for my personal use in the public service.
Subvoucher No. 1314
Abstract of funds recieved from
Authorized Sales of Public Property for ----December 1918------

Edited by cwnorma, 07 September 2008 - 11:59 AM.


#11 cwnorma

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 12:07 PM

The following is from "U.S. Army Regulations 1913 Corrected to April 15 1917" (G.P.O.):

1520. The service arms, ammunition, accoutrements, and horse equipemts required by an officer or contract surgeon for his own use in the public service may be sold to him by the Ordnance Department at the regulation price and the money received passed to the credit of the proper appropriation. Ordnance supplies thus sold to officers or contract surgerons will not be disposed of to persons not in the military service.

#12 Charlie Flick

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:09 PM

Good information, Chris, along with a handsome, well documented rig.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

#13 El Bibliotecario

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:14 PM

The following is from "U.S. Army Regulations 1913 Corrected to April 15 1917" (G.P.O.):

1520. The service arms, ammunition, accoutrements, and horse equipemts required by an officer or contract surgeon for his own use in the public service may be sold to him by the Ordnance Department at the regulation price and the money received passed to the credit of the proper appropriation. Ordnance supplies thus sold to officers or contract surgerons will not be disposed of to persons not in the military service.


GREAT! *lol* Now I'll quit thinking that everyone's grandpa who brought home a .45 in 1918 lifted it. Thanks for that citation.

Arturo, I know the form you speak of, although I can't recall the number. This accompanied captured pistols brought to the US by GIs...in theory. In fact, a lot of GIs didn't bother with the paperwork and just stuck them in their duffle bags. Since the advent of the computer, I expect a lot of these forms have been created to make a pistol more saleable.

#14 Bank Vault

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 07:30 PM

To bad prices have changed lol

#15 artu44

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 10:37 PM

It's real funny to see in cwnorma form they pointed out that the M1912 belt didn't have the sabre ring. Maybe they sold the NCO belt for few cents more then they had to specify the difference.

#16 mrhell

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 07:28 AM

BOS.JPG


The Bill of Sale is the document on the left.


Sir, this is an outstanding display. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


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