Jump to content


Fake M1942 Enamel Canteen & Enamel Cup

Started by Reaper , Jan 05 2016 06:12 PM

  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:12 PM

If this has already been mentioned, then please forgive the post. but I have been away for a significant period of time and may have missed it being mentioned. A search did not turn up any reference to it.

 

 I recently discovered an auction on ebay of an admittedly fake enamel canteen and cup: the owner of the auction mentioned outright that it was indeed a repro done for re-enactment purposes, but since he is using original (uncoated) canteens and cups, some may be fooled into a bad investment by a seller of lesser character. The US stamp is quite obviously wrong to the experienced collector, but a new collector may be fooled by it, if misrepresented in a sale.

 

Auction link is here: http://www.ebay.com/...cvip=true&rt=nc

 

"Caveat emptor", indeed. Again, please forgive me if I am "late to the party" mentioning this. 

 

GR



#2 tarbridge

tarbridge

    CHIEF MODERATOR

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 123
  • 13,563 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fayetteville,N.C.

Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:22 PM

$_1.JPG $_1 (1).JPG $_1 (2).JPG $_1 (3).JPG $_1 (4).JPG $_1 (5).JPG $_1 (6).JPG

#3 Username

Username
  • Members
    • Member ID: 153,820
  • 471 posts

Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:30 PM

They look pretty convincing, if a half rolled edge tin cup had been used it would be indistinguishable. Makes me wary about buying an un-chipped example. At least you can see that they rust if they have chips. 



#4 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 January 2016 - 07:49 PM

Yes, these ARE porcelain-coated. If they are able to get the markings correct much damage could be done to the market. 


Edited by Reaper, 06 January 2016 - 08:00 PM.


#5 THAT GUY

THAT GUY
  • Members
    • Member ID: 8,911
  • 1,663 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Somewhere in the South

Posted 07 January 2016 - 04:58 PM

I accidentally bid on this just seeing an enameled cup and then realized it was a reproduction and immediately pulled it.  :rolleyes:



#6 Mandy

Mandy
  • Members
    • Member ID: 108,108
  • 451 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:HEART OF EUROPE

Posted 10 January 2016 - 10:56 AM

The enamel canteen cup was made only in 1942. (the total number 26 634.) Manufactured by L.F.&C. 1942 and M.A.&Co. 1942. Tom 



#7 gitana

gitana
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,792
  • 1,399 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 11 January 2016 - 09:49 AM

The enamel looks spot on! Hopefully the recreations will maintain a different typeface for the markings, but I'm not holding my breath.



#8 ChuckG

ChuckG
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 158,662
  • 20 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SoCal

Posted 13 January 2016 - 04:03 AM

During the last couple of months I've noticed that there have been an inordinate amount of pristine black enameled canteens up for auction. IIRC, I seem to recall 4-5 on Ebay. Since I do not search everyday, it stuck me as odd that so many have popped up for sale in the $40-80 range.

One that I saw twice from different sellers had REP on the bottom. I laughed to myself that it was short for repop.

Out of the several thousand pieces of ww2 field gear that I have owned, only one is a mint enameled piece & I thought it was a bit odd that several more mint pieces were for sale in such a short time span.

I think newly minted pieces are trickling into the market.

#9 THAT GUY

THAT GUY
  • Members
    • Member ID: 8,911
  • 1,663 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Somewhere in the South

Posted 13 January 2016 - 08:59 AM

REP is not a reproduction maker. 



#10 Username

Username
  • Members
    • Member ID: 153,820
  • 471 posts

Posted 14 January 2016 - 12:43 PM

Perhaps the best way to tell if a canteen is original is if it has the sharp edge on the spout and welded middle or side seam. The only non enamel canteens with welded seams I have seen are aluminum, and have a rounded spout. With the cups, I would think the only way to be sure is to compare the weight to a confirmed original. The tin plated and enamel cups likely have different weight.

#11 thorin6

thorin6
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,546
  • 1,808 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 January 2016 - 02:49 PM

It doesn't seem as if the black enamel canteens are all that rare, given how many of them show up on Ebay.  However, I don't think I've seen very many of the blue ones; are they hard to find?



#12 costa

costa
  • Members
    • Member ID: 73
  • 4,476 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:nj

Posted 14 January 2016 - 04:07 PM

nothing is sacred any more, is it



#13 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 January 2016 - 05:34 PM

It doesn't seem as if the black enamel canteens are all that rare, given how many of them show up on Ebay.  However, I don't think I've seen very many of the blue ones; are they hard to find?

 

Yes, the blue ones are VERY hard to find, and even harder to photograph. 



#14 thorin6

thorin6
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,546
  • 1,808 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 January 2016 - 07:52 PM

 

Yes, the blue ones are VERY hard to find, and even harder to photograph. 

 

I'll give it a shot.
 



#15 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 March 2016 - 02:39 PM

Perhaps the best way to tell if a canteen is original is if it has the sharp edge on the spout and welded middle or side seam. The only non enamel canteens with welded seams I have seen are aluminum, and have a rounded spout. With the cups, I would think the only way to be sure is to compare the weight to a confirmed original. The tin plated and enamel cups likely have different weight.

 

Rereading this thread made me curious: do all enamel canteens have a folded-over sharp lip? A survey of my enamels showed that 13 of 14 of them (2 of each of the 7 manufacturers) have the folded-over sharp lip and  hollow neck. The 14th one had a solid neck and a flat top mouth; this one was a blue U.S.S Co.(so stamped). Ironically, my other U.S.S Co. is black with the typical mouth and horizontal seam.  My blue G.P. & F. has the typical mouth.

 

 

3536e95b-e743-43c4-a6a4-9bf218cdd958.jpg


Edited by Reaper, 29 March 2016 - 02:50 PM.


#16 denfly

denfly
  • Members
    • Member ID: 126,332
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:37 PM

I am more than sure the GP&F canteen was never made in enamel. These came out in 1943. The enameled ones were in 1942. Of the 6 manufacturers, GP&F was not one of them. Beware on ebay there seems to be quite a bit of pristine enameled cups unmarked lately for sale.


Edited by denfly, 12 September 2017 - 12:44 PM.


#17 denfly

denfly
  • Members
    • Member ID: 126,332
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:44 PM

And blue one's I should add as well.


Edited by denfly, 12 September 2017 - 12:46 PM.


#18 TheMinistryOfAviation

TheMinistryOfAviation
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,868
  • 157 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas TX

Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:53 AM

Easy to spot from the dated cup, but still... these are really good repros...

 

http://www.ebay.com/...119.m1438.l2649

 

From the seller:

 

"Note this is a WWII canteen and WWII cup. We enameled them the way cars are factory painted, we used Electrostatic Paint and then baked them in the oven.
We did this a few years ago and sell one or two a year. We stay in contact with the first few buyers to see that everything is still good with the canteen and cup. I am happy to report there has been no problems.You can't put the cup over an open fire. I guarantee each of the canteens and cups. If you are looking for just the cup I'm willing to sell it separate just send me an email. "

 

Ebay user : eri.nishi

 

I'll attach the pictures too so they'll remain after the listing ends.

 

-Jeremy

Attached Images

  • fake.jpg
  • fake as well.jpg

Edited by TheMinistryOfAviation, 13 September 2017 - 05:55 AM.


#19 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:20 AM

074ceb0d-0f81-420c-937e-15d422808718.jpg



#20 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:45 AM

You will notice that, at the end of paragraph 1 above, mention is made of "U.S. Stamping and Enameling Co.", bringing the total of vending manufacturers to 7. At the time of the issuance of the document, Sept. 23, 1942, only U.S.S. Co. had delivered their required 10 canteen samples to the National Bureau of Standards.

 

 Perhaps of only trivial mention is the fact that the above document lists "Volrath" as one of the manufacturers: to date, I have only ever seen canteens stamped as "Vollrath". Apparently, simply a typographical error.


Edited by Reaper, 14 September 2017 - 06:47 AM.


#21 denfly

denfly
  • Members
    • Member ID: 126,332
  • 235 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:35 AM

With all the canteens available, you would think they would use a un-dented one because in realty, a dent would also result in chipping.

#22 TheMinistryOfAviation

TheMinistryOfAviation
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,868
  • 157 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas TX

Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:47 AM

There are unmarked enamel canteens.. could some of these perhaps be made by Volrath?

 

-Jeremy



#23 Jumpin Jack

Jumpin Jack
  • Members
    • Member ID: 247
  • 2,208 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Leawood, KS

Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:50 AM

Maybe the reproductions are accounting for the reason I'm having trouble selling two period originals.  Jack



#24 Reaper

Reaper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 14,433
  • 190 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:15 AM

There are unmarked enamel canteens.. could some of these perhaps be made by Volrath?

 

-Jeremy

 

Vollrath was stuck with some 150,000 canteens  when the enamel canteens were deemed unsuitable for field use. As a result, Vollrath attempted to sell them to the Navy, sending a letter to the OIC Navy Purchasing Office. IIRC, these were noted as being unmarked. 

 

It is possible that GP&F were unable to complete their obligation and sub-contracted said obligation to someone else who agreed to not mark them. I have no evidence of this at the moment and such is mere speculation on my part. Stranger things have happened in the military contract world: ask anyone who collects Mosin or Enfield rifles. GP&F may not have begun their contractual obligation, but there is no evidence of this of which I am aware. "Arguments from silence" are by no means conclusive.

 

Some of the unmarked canteens may have been made by GP&F, but there certainly existed enough overstock from Vollrath to account for them all.


Edited by Reaper, 14 September 2017 - 11:27 AM.


#25 doyler

doyler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 342
  • 30,007 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Under The Bridge

Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:28 AM

I have an unmarked canteen and owned a couple others in the past.Mine looks mint/unused.

 

It doesnt surprise me so many are avaiable to the market and most I feel saw surplus sales after the war and use for scouting and camping.

 

I had read that onece these were found to be a problem due to the shard from chipping and the issue of swallowing them the canteens became a limited standard or secondary use and were not to be shipped over for combat use.

 

I do have a black canteen that came in a Marine Corps gear group several years ago.


Edited by doyler, 14 September 2017 - 11:29 AM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


In Memory of Co-Founder GREG MILLS ROBINSON, a.k.a. "Marine-KaBar"
(February 17, 1949 - March 5, 2011)