BEAST Posted December 19, 2015 Share #26 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, Do you think Miller's was privately engraved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share #27 Posted December 20, 2015 Miller's DFC is an interesting one. It's in the Bolling number range and it attributed to him by number. None of the others I've seen are engraved. The faceted hand engraving is not what I would expect from PQMD engraving. I think it's possible it was engraved after he died. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share #28 Posted December 20, 2015 But I couldn't figure out your statement-- Besides, for what I paid for this DFC, I would not expect it to be messed with. Not prying into what you paid or asking to know, but I could have taken that to mean because the cost was not a bargain, you expected it to be bona fide. Or, because the cost was a bargain, you expected it to be bona fide because there was no profit margin for the seller making something phony. Either way, great medal and story! I figured if the seller didnt even know it was numbered and sold it for what an unnumbered DFC would be, that the likelihood of him adding a number to it was extremely remote. I just got lucky, Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted December 20, 2015 Share #29 Posted December 20, 2015 Miller's DFC is an interesting one. It's in the Bolling number range and it attributed to him by number. None of the others I've seen are engraved. The faceted hand engraving is not what I would expect from PQMD engraving. I think it's possible it was engraved after he died. Kurt Thanks Kurt. After the raid, he was a celebrity in his hometown, so I wonder if it was engraved by the city as suggested in an earlier post? Or maybe just engraved by his family. Interesting it doesn't have his rank or other flourishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted December 20, 2015 Share #30 Posted December 20, 2015 During WW2, did the US Government engravers engrave " To " or " Awarded To " on DFCs ? Wharf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barickman Posted December 20, 2015 Share #31 Posted December 20, 2015 Kurt, Nice job; knowledge is power. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share #32 Posted December 21, 2015 Thanks Kurt. After the raid, he was a celebrity in his hometown, so I wonder if it was engraved by the city as suggested in an earlier post? Or maybe just engraved by his family. Interesting it doesn't have his rank or other flourishes. It would be interesting if the family has any information on the medal on when/how it was engraved. The Army did engraved DFCs just " Name Only" in 1941-42. Once of my friends has an officially named DFC with the original 1926 style DFC certificate that was awarded in 1941. It has a 3 digit number and is only engraved with his name. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share #33 Posted December 21, 2015 During WW2, did the US Government engravers engrave " To " or " Awarded To " on DFCs ? Wharf Not on the ones the PQMD engraved that are referred to as official engraving. The named DFC in the auction would have been engraved by someone else. Jeweler, local command, ETC ( I have also seen medals hand engraved recently that look very very good ). Just because a medal is beautifully hand engraved, doesn't make it old engraving. I have no idea if the named one from the auction is old or new. Having original paper with a group is a good sign too, but its not a guarantee either. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris3bs Posted December 21, 2015 Share #34 Posted December 21, 2015 My apologies for putting this in the thread. Please delete if not appropriate. I saw this listed on Ebay and supposedly it is related to Doolittle. Maybe someone has already seen it: Thought I would pass it along. http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-DOOLITTLE-AUTOGRAPH-AERO-SQUADRON-pilot-log-book-jimmy-raid-/161919081167?hash=item25b3211acf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Queen Posted December 21, 2015 Share #35 Posted December 21, 2015 I just saw the hammer price on the original auction lot and started to cry........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share #36 Posted December 21, 2015 Just remember Eric.... There are no good deals on EBay..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 21, 2015 Share #37 Posted December 21, 2015 I just saw the hammer price on the original auction lot and started to cry........... I know. I found the auction lot as well. The Chinese Document and Medal are worth more by themselves! JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 21, 2015 Share #38 Posted December 21, 2015 Just remember Eric.... There are no good deals on EBay..... Kurt, You are a lucky man! JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share #39 Posted December 22, 2015 I was able to get some more pics of the auction lot from another source. The Chinese medal is also engraved, and there is a number on the back of the medal. That particular medal number does trace to Lt. Smith, but the number appears to be hand engraved, but its hard to tell from the photo. The ones I have seen the numbers are stamped and the medals were not engraved. The engraving on the Chinese medal matches the engraving on the DFC. Photographic evidence also shows it is improbable it is the same medal he was wearing in the photo taken in 1942. Look at the position of the petals of the flower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted December 22, 2015 Share #40 Posted December 22, 2015 Interesting observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share #41 Posted December 22, 2015 Here is a photo of another Raider I found on the net showing his Chinese medal. The petals are in the same position as the one in the photo of Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 22, 2015 Share #42 Posted December 22, 2015 Veeery curious. I love the engraving on the medals in the auction, but I've never seen an engraved number on a Chinese medal before; they're always stamped. I'd be curious if they did engrave them...I'd have a lot of pause over this group if I saw it at a show...mostly because I don't know if the medal is right or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 22, 2015 Share #43 Posted December 22, 2015 Very interesting. I have never seen a engraved number on a Chinese medal either. Like Dave said, they are normally stamped. It would be interesting to see the back of another one of these that was awarded to a Raider. If it is stamped, that would probably seal it. There has to be one around to get photos of, or maybe someone has photos of one on hand. My group has photos of the medals in wear as well. I don't believe there are shots of the backs though. When I get home, I will have to check it out. The mystery deepens! JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted December 22, 2015 Share #44 Posted December 22, 2015 Is the Japanese style suspension clip correct for this Chinese medal? Saylor's medal appears to have a pin brooch. Wharf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Queen Posted December 23, 2015 Share #45 Posted December 23, 2015 To be honest Kurt, based solely on this one photo (of the reverse of the Chinese medal) I am not convinced that the numbers are hand engraved (vs. stamped). Notice the style of the numbers. They are exact to what you would expect to be on the reverse of one of these medals. If they are hand engraved, someone went to a lot of trouble to replicate the Chinese numbers (exact size and font). For me, I would need to see better photos of the numbers to make a determination. As to the orientation of the petals, the front enamel disc seems to be held on by the screw on the back. I wonder if it could be possible that the front disc was removed (for the hand engraving of the name, etc.) then replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Queen Posted December 23, 2015 Share #46 Posted December 23, 2015 Is the Japanese style suspension clip correct for this Chinese medal? Saylor's medal appears to have a pin brooch. Wharf Yes and notice also that whoever did the horrible job of colorizing the photo colored the white portion of the ribbon red. It looks like when he had the pin broach added the ribbon was reversed. Interesting to note also is that the ribbon on the ribbon bar is also reversed. Makes you wonder which one came first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanemono Posted December 23, 2015 Share #47 Posted December 23, 2015 For what it's worth, I had a Chinese made Mauser Broomhandle with hand engraved numbers in the same font as the Chinese medal. Here is a Chinese medal I have with a similar font. Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 23, 2015 Share #48 Posted December 23, 2015 Dick, that does look very close. The number that threw me was the 5 with the flourish. Maybe it is a stamped number. For the record, I went through my group last night and the photos of the medals were just of the front side. (Of course haha) JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainofthe7th Posted December 23, 2015 Share #49 Posted December 23, 2015 Kurt, thanks for sharing, I love this medal now because of the mystery and the homework you did. I can only echo what others have said - knowledge is power. I am glad you found this. Even though this is out of my realm, I also agree that you have the original DFC awarded to Smith. I might have a copy of the WD GO. I will look, if you're interested and don't already have it. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share #50 Posted December 28, 2015 To be honest Kurt, based solely on this one photo (of the reverse of the Chinese medal) I am not convinced that the numbers are hand engraved (vs. stamped). Notice the style of the numbers. They are exact to what you would expect to be on the reverse of one of these medals. If they are hand engraved, someone went to a lot of trouble to replicate the Chinese numbers (exact size and font). For me, I would need to see better photos of the numbers to make a determination. As to the orientation of the petals, the front enamel disc seems to be held on by the screw on the back. I wonder if it could be possible that the front disc was removed (for the hand engraving of the name, etc.) then replaced. I wish I could get better images. I don't know why someone would have needed to remove the disk to engrave the medal. It is kind of odd that the screw is a lot shinier than the rest of the back of the medal. It could have been removed at one time which could explain the shifting of the disk on the front. For me the real proof would be knowing what the number is on the edge of that DFC. Unless the Army made 2 DFC's with number 2176, there can only be one. If the number of the Chinese medal is good, its the number awarded to him. perhaps the original DFC got lost ( the one I have ) and he ended up with another before he died? The Chinese medal and the DFC look like they were engraved at the same time, and definitely after they were presented. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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