KASTAUFFER Posted December 18, 2015 Share #1 Posted December 18, 2015 I recently acquired this at an auction described as " WWII Army Air Medal" . The description didnt even say it was numbered, I could tell from the photo it was numbered so I bid and got it. The number on it was VERY close to a Doolittle Raider DFC I used to own and I had other items from the same veteran. I also had a document from the National Archives that listed the numbers of the DFCs awarded to the Doolittle Raiders at Bolling Field in WA DC in July 1942. The number of the medal I had matched the medal number on the document. I knew the numbers on the document were correct. All of the DFCs to Doolittle Raiders I have seen awarded at Bolling Field are not named. Fast forward 20 years to this DFC. It is numbered 2176 . It is very clearly, numbered correctly and no funny business has occurred with the number. Besides, for what I paid for this DFC, I would not expect it to be messed with. Here is the entry for this recipient from the document with a few of the other numbers. It also shows the WD GO# it was awarded on. Since I have started researching this DFC, I found there are 2 more DFCs whose numbers are unknown to me, but are both engraved to Lt Smith. One was sold in Auction in 2014. Here is a page from the auction and a picture of the DFC. I have been told by someone who has seen the 3rd DFC ( not pictured) the engraving is similar but not exactly the same. This is a real mystery. The original Recipient Lt. Smith received his medal in June 1942 at Bolling Field. It would not have been engraved. He died in November 1942 in a plane crash in England. Clearly the number on the medal I have is the right number and it is not named. The other medal has original paperwork, but the medal number is unknown. Would he have have had time between June 1942 and Nov 1942 to have his own medal engraved like this? Did he somehow end up with 2 medals? Did someone acquire the original papers and engrave a medal to match them? I sent a message to the previous owner of the group with the engraved medal and paperwork and the auction house inquiring if they had a record of the medal number, but I have not received any information. I do not know where the other engraved medal is. That one does not have any original paperwork from what I was told, but it has not been seen for 20+ years. I would be very interested to know what the numbers are on the other 2 medals. There is also the possibility after he died, someone had another medal engraved and presented to the family. His only daughter died a few years back. This is a mystery I would like to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaDave Posted December 18, 2015 Share #2 Posted December 18, 2015 Kurt Well sir, in my opinion you have the original medal issued to Smith at Bolling Field, may I be the first to congratulate you, an incredible find bar none. DakotaDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted December 18, 2015 Share #3 Posted December 18, 2015 Kurt Well sir, in my opinion you have the original medal issued to Smith at Bolling Field, may I be the first to congratulate you, an incredible find bar none. DakotaDave Times Two ! W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted December 18, 2015 Share #4 Posted December 18, 2015 Looks like a Doolittle DFC to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 18, 2015 Share #5 Posted December 18, 2015 I would agree, although I would say that as you mentioned, this one may have went to a family member who then had it engraved. The engraving does appear to be older. Interesting nonetheless and I'm sure there would be a interesting story if all these could talk! JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted December 18, 2015 Share #6 Posted December 18, 2015 Doolittle was a Lt.Col. during the raid. He was promoted to BG around mid-1942. Can't find the exact date. The engraved cross would have been done after he was promoted. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 18, 2015 Share #7 Posted December 18, 2015 Kurt, After more thought, if the engraved DFC was also in the Doolittle number range, that could make it very interesting and open the door to all kinds of scenarios. Do you know who the current owner of the engraved set is? I can say without any doubt that all the paperwork shown in the auction is good. The Chinese award document and medal for the raid are rare beasts on their own. I have a very complete Doolittle document grouping, and all the same documents are there. JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted December 18, 2015 Hi JD I have no idea who has the group with the paperwork now. I do know it sold for relatively a bargain price in that auction in June 2014, but in that auction it was marketed as a Doolittle Autograph group. Most militaria dealers would have missed it entirely. The paperwork looks good to me too. The only thing missing is the M1926 style DFC certificate that they were also awarded. Do you have that with the group you own? Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDK Posted December 19, 2015 Share #9 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, Interesting. Even if the DFC turns out to be no good, there was some very nice other material there. Wish I had seen it! Haha Yes, I do have the large DFC award document in my group. The Doolittle letter that was in this auction lot you posted is almost identical to the one within my group which leads me to believe they were formatted with minor changes and then signed by Doolittle and sent to each Raiders family or spouse. JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted December 19, 2015 Share #10 Posted December 19, 2015 Doolittle was a Lt.Col. during the raid. He was promoted to BG around mid-1942. Can't find the exact date. The engraved cross would have been done after he was promoted. W Actually he was promoted to Brigadier General almost immediately after the raid, skipping the rank of full Colonel. I believe you have Smith's original DFC. Since he was killed in Nov 1942 it may be that the beautifully engraved Cross was presented to his widow at that time. My 2-cemts. Congrats.......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted December 19, 2015 Share #11 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, I don't have much experience with Raider DFCs, but here is one that was presented at Bolling that is engraved. I don't own this one, it is still in the possession of the family. The number is a few off of the one that you posted and the Raider was killed in January 1943. I would think that the numbered one that you have shown is the one issued at Bolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, I don't have much experience with Raider DFCs, but here is one that was presented at Bolling that is engraved. I don't own this one, it is still in the possession of the family. The number is a few off of the one that you posted and the Raider was killed in January 1943. I would think that the numbered one that you have shown is the one issued at Bolling. dfc.jpg Thanks for posting this one. I had only seen 3 and this one makes 4. The other 3 were not engraved. The other one I had was within 10 digits of 2176. How close is this one? Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted December 19, 2015 Share #13 Posted December 19, 2015 Thanks for posting this one. I had only seen 3 and this one makes 4. The other 3 were not engraved. The other one I had was within 10 digits of 2176. How close is this one? Kurt Within 9 digits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted December 19, 2015 Share #14 Posted December 19, 2015 I sold a Doolittle pilot group about 15 years ago.I think I can get the number.It was multi piece medal group with a DFC...it was number verified and was a Boling Field issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share #15 Posted December 19, 2015 That would be great Robert. I have seen a few that were issued in the CBI too and they were in the high 900s, low 1000 range. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanemono Posted December 19, 2015 Share #16 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, that is an amazing find but only because you did your homework. Great job! Dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Queen Posted December 19, 2015 Share #17 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, just to echo what others have said, amazing find. Goes to show it is still out there. I am certainly no expert but I doubt that any of these were engraved prior to being awarded Bolling field. I would think any engraving would have been done privately after the fact. My gut tells me the one you have is the actual medal awarded to Smith at Bolling. The other (engraved) piece, as others have said, could have been done by the family, local/state officials, etc. It may be difficult to ever answer that question. Here is the original news release from the award ceremony. You can see Smith listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Queen Posted December 19, 2015 Share #18 Posted December 19, 2015 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Queen Posted December 19, 2015 Share #19 Posted December 19, 2015 Here is Smith wearing the medal on the day it was awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decwriter Posted December 19, 2015 Share #20 Posted December 19, 2015 Awesome find and even better homework on the DFC Kurt! Great thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerialbridge Posted December 19, 2015 Share #21 Posted December 19, 2015 Kurt, IMO, this medal is the "knowledge is power" story of the week. You really earned it through your resources and knowledge where many would have missed it, including me. And it's a great post. But I couldn't figure out your statement-- Besides, for what I paid for this DFC, I would not expect it to be messed with. Not prying into what you paid or asking to know, but I could have taken that to mean because the cost was not a bargain, you expected it to be bona fide. Or, because the cost was a bargain, you expected it to be bona fide because there was no profit margin for the seller making something phony. Either way, great medal and story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadet Posted December 19, 2015 Share #22 Posted December 19, 2015 Great DFC Kurt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 19, 2015 Share #23 Posted December 19, 2015 Let's see, by June 1942 Doolittle was a general officer...so the engraved one could have been done any time between June and November, and still been done by him. Or, since this was such a HUGE deal, I'd bet that it was done by someone to honor him as a PR-related thing. Think about it...these guys were feted everywhere...he returns back to his hometown, the mayor has a jeweler make up an engraved DFC for him and gives it to him in a ceremony. While there's no proof of that, it would seem like a legitimate theory (or something like that...) I like the engraving on the DFC that was sold, and I believe it's legitimate...but at the same time, Kurt has the DFC that was actually awarded...and that's AWESOME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhcoleterracina Posted December 19, 2015 Share #24 Posted December 19, 2015 The documentation appears good from what we can see. They don't list the DFC number or if it even has one. It could be a case where one person has the documents and they then created the DFC to create a group. You clearly have the real deal, well done. Perhaps that other group will join the conversation with better pictures. Did the seller have any history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share #25 Posted December 19, 2015 Thanks for all the comments! Eric, thanks for the scans! I wish I had an image of the 3rd DFC that exists engraved to Lt. Smith. Knowing 2 DFCs, one traceable by number and a second engraved one makes sense, but a third engraved one does not. I may try and get a copy of his file to see if there is an explanation. It would have been nearly impossible in 1942-43 for the family or another civilian to have just "picked up a medal" and had it engraved. The Army would have issued the additional medals and in 1942 the official style was to just engrave a name. In 1943, rank, name, AC and GO date became the norm. In the middle of 1943, the GO date was dropped. I also find it odd his rank was just listed as Lt. and not 2nd or 1st Lt. The Army would have engraved the full rank. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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