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What Does A $24,000.00 Fake Helmet Look Like?


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#26 Bugme

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 09:16 AM

And don't forget to mention NO third party overseeing the results coupled with the fact that there was NO set standard to begin with.

All of this is just a smoke screen for the fake helmets to be given Status as WW2 period.

Thats a big part of the findings.

I know of several of the bad helmets in friends collections and they are scary.......complete with COAs.

Its a massive shockwave through the helmet collecting house that they are bad and have been proved so.


The third party oversight question was the first step toward the unraveling of this use of XRF Owen. They would not share the data they were using so that it could be verified. In the end, the number of samplings used to build the database was embarrassingly small for TR helmets and nearly non-exisitant among US helmets, yet helmets were given the stamp of approval or dismissed as fakes based on HIGHLY FLAWED data, fancy talk and cool looking literature. It simply didn't work and as a result, there are now worthless fakes sitting on collectors shelves with COA's and some legitimate helmets which were wrongly destroyed by those who believed the results and thought they had fakes. Sad, barely describes this whole fiasco. The lot number chart and revelation of painted runes were the wooden stake in the heart for XRF promoters. 

As for those who invested in this, whether their plans were noble or not, they are still going to have to take responsibility for it. Believe it or not, I do feel sorry for them, it is going to be a tough road.



#27 willysmb44

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 09:21 AM

 

I doubt any prosecutor would file criminal charges in something like this: can you imagine having to explain all this to a jury?

 

Not to mention that you'd have to prove that the person you paid the money to was either the person who did the fakery or knew it was fake to start with. That's the key to these things; you have to prove the person selling it did the work or knew it was done that made it appear something it wasn't.

And again, in a courtroom it'd still be conjecture even with all this info. Just look into history of such court proceedings with art forgeries. In many of those cases, even with evidence that makes sense, the jury rarely ever sided with the buyer because they're relying on what the 'experts' say and even then their case is not nearly as ironclad as the lawyers would of course want it to be.
 


Edited by willysmb44, 03 December 2015 - 09:22 AM.


#28 aef1917

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 09:42 AM

I think it's really interesting that lot number study was a big key in uncovering this.  I've been collecting lot number information on painted WWI helmets, and although I don't have anywhere near Brian's 15,000-helmet sample size, some patterns are already emerging.



#29 MAW

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 10:10 AM

I think it's really interesting that lot number study was a big key in uncovering this.  I've been collecting lot number information on painted WWI helmets, and although I don't have anywhere near Brian's 15,000-helmet sample size, some patterns are already emerging.

 

Hmmmmm.......care to "share with the group"?  :)



#30 tarbridge

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:12 AM

Don't forget the XRF shopping bags...

#31 Bugme

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:33 AM

 

Hmmmmm.......care to "share with the group"?  :)


Ian has come up with some pretty cool stuff in his M1917 lot number work. I can't say much but, it'll be interesting when he releases it. On another note of M-2 interest, there is a data base being worked on concerning lot numbers on legitimate D-Loop's which has already shown itself to be very helpful in vetting out the fakes.
 

 

Don't forget the XRF shopping bags...


I used to have one of those bags Robert but, threw it out after I felt bad juju with it. ;)



#32 doinworkinvans

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:56 AM

I for one am glad I live complete opposite of "wierdville"

 

I don't really understand it totally....but it sounds like a win for the good guys this time!

 

And makes me even more glad I stick to uniform groups!


Edited by doinworkinvans, 03 December 2015 - 11:56 AM.


#33 38Driver

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:24 PM

An amazing research effort by DougB.  As a newbie to being a collector, it saddens me on one hand and encourages me on the other.  It's been evident from the first time I came to this board and on others that we are blessed with the "saints" and stuck with the "sinners" in this hobby.  The saints emphasize the history and accept that money is now a part of the equation.  The sinners want the money and create the history to feed their desire for more of the money.

 

It has to be about preserving the history, not increasing the profit.  Sadly I don't know how that continues to happen outside of folks like DougB who seems to have some real integrity to him.

 

Thanks for sharing that link.  it was well worth the time to read that work done by DougB



#34 aef1917

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:24 PM

 

Hmmmmm.......care to "share with the group"?  :)

 

It's all very preliminary (I haven't even gone through my own collection completely), but the pattern that is becoming apparent is that helmets from a given division fall into a certain range of lot numbers. 

 

Of course, this pattern may change as more data is gathered.



#35 USMC-RECON0321

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:34 PM

 

Not to mention that you'd have to prove that the person you paid the money to was either the person who did the fakery or knew it was fake to start with. That's the key to these things; you have to prove the person selling it did the work or knew it was done that made it appear something it wasn't.

And again, in a courtroom it'd still be conjecture even with all this info. Just look into history of such court proceedings with art forgeries. In many of those cases, even with evidence that makes sense, the jury rarely ever sided with the buyer because they're relying on what the 'experts' say and even then their case is not nearly as ironclad as the lawyers would of course want it to be.
 

 

I think the best chance of recourse anyone has, that has been suckered by this whole deal, would be a civil suite vs criminal.    

 

A criminal case would be for the faker himself and the very first tier of dealers or collectors who started unloading them for the faker.  I'm sure the CR helmets were purposely planted in certain dealers (or collectors) hands covering many different geographics as not to raise suspicion and from that point on everyone can claim they were taken also and didn't know.   BUT... everyone in the selling chain of these could still be liable civilly with their COA or life time guarantees (IF they gave one). Will you ever get your money?? No telling, but I would sure out any seller who refused to honor his COA or LTG.    And I would say those poor collectors currently holding these helmets now after this report is out are stuck with the "Hot Potato", and would need to acknowledge their helmet as fake when it goes to auction or put up for sale.  The grace period of "I didn't know" is over as a seller.   I find it interesting one just sold on a military consignment auction on 11-29-15. Maybe a coincidence maybe not?   https://grenadierauctions.hibid.com/lot/22444086/m-42-waffen-ss-s-d-combat-helmet?tab=0 

 

If enough of these current and past owners of the CR helmets get together with their purchase and sales records, it shouldn't take to long to start seeing the same names pop up and to see the list get narrowed down to where they were being originated from and the first time sellers.  I'm sure one of the biggest hurdles will be the possible international connections and in today's world, it will probably be hard to get many courts to care much about forgery WWII German helmets.  



#36 Kadet

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:19 PM

I started collecting German militaria when I was 10. I'm 53 now. I love German helmets, and they were the complete focus of my collecting for many years. They are striking and iconic symbols. I've bought, owned and sold hundreds of them over the years, and moderated the WAF helmet forum. I kept the nicer ones that I found out of the woodwork, especially the camos. They number around 20, and I hang on to them like grim death because they could never be replaced. Out of all those helmets, I've owned exactly 2 Waffen SS examples. Both Quist M40 single decals for those in the know. The first one I stupidly sold many years ago to fund something or other, and the second I was ecstatic to buy from a friend at the SOS last year. Regarding German camos, there are thousands and thousands of them floating around out there, some done so expertly that they are indistinguishable from an original (despite what some authorities might claim). I know German helmets very well, and they frankly scare the hell out of me now. I would never buy a camo off a dealer website or table. There is just no way to know for sure that it is real. Because of all this, the German helmet market has completely tanked....and I don't mean just financially. Collecting German helmets has become really unpleasant. I truly hope US militaria never experiences this sort of situation, but I fear it is just a matter of time. M1 helmets are on their way. I always wonder about high end uniforms, and those high end engraved medal groups. To me, these would be easier to fake than a camo helmet. Collector denial and "sheep like" behavior are two of the dynamics that put German helmet collecting where it is today. US collectors can learn from this by keeping a critical mind, and always seeking more knowledge. Stay safe!



#37 BILL THE PATCH

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:58 PM

I've read entire post, now I have a headache. Learning is tough. :wacko:

#38 Bugme

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 02:05 PM

...Learning is tough. :wacko:


And it'll save you gobs of money in the future. :)  



#39 kammo-man

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:01 PM

I for one am glad I live complete opposite of "wierdville"

 

I don't really understand it totally....but it sounds like a win for the good guys this time!

 

And makes me even more glad I stick to uniform groups!

 

Whats this supposed to mean ?

Really ?

Moderators for gods sake I am sick of this guys cheap shots.

OWEN 



#40 willysmb44

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:22 PM

I truly hope US militaria never experiences this sort of situation, but I fear it is just a matter of time. M1 helmets are on their way.

 

Oh, they're there now, for the painted pots, especially the "worth its weight in gold" E/506th PIR marked ones...



#41 tarbridge

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:47 PM

Okay everyone that is picking on Owen..Have a long walk with your dog and think of summer...and stop. :)

#42 popcorn

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 02:42 AM

I think XRF could be a helpful tool but is flawed. If I understand correctly an "expert" claimed helmet A to be good so they tested it and added it to the database. Helmet B gets tested, same readings so it's thought to be real. Helmet A ends up being fake. The test is also flawed in that it can't determine the age of paints/decals. It can show readings that paint A has similar components as paint B but not if either paint is 70 years old or 15 years old. Also, on reading the thread on the other forum they mentioned some helmets got mislabelled(a fake label on a good helmet and vise versa). Good on Doug for bringing this to light.



#43 mdk0911

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 06:17 AM

So the XRF can't tell the difference between a decal and paint?

I know the very early SS had the runes painted on but the Champagne Decal was never tested for this!!! -  

So Doug had to sacrifice a expense (at the time) CD helmet and scrape the decal to find out it is paint  - 



#44 Ray175INF

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 08:59 AM

It seems to me that the XRF was just a money making tool. Trying to corner the market to be the sole authenticator with their COA’s and LTG’s. The major proponents were not forthcoming with their findings, not transparent aside from saying, “we’ve broken the code” but when asked objective educational questions it was deflection deflection.  Saying it’s going to save the hobby…from what I gather there were those who questioned the reliability of it early on in other forums they were censored, threatened, banned. Does that come off as it being beneficial for the hobby? If people were getting censored/banned for asking questions you have to ask yourself for whom and what benefit are they getting banned for?

What blows me away is that these have been around for 30 years…30 YEARS!  They were that good…. Its not like these CR’s were initially reenactor helmets that were passed along overtime being taken as real, from what I’ve read is that when these helmets initially hit the market there were fake veterans vouching for them as there bring backs from the war.  It was definitely premeditated; they knew what they were doing.  I feel for anyone who is stuck with one…that’s a hard pill to swallow I’m sure there will be some who stand by them saying only some are faked and others are real… major dollars involved. I personally feel you should question everything and not go along with the sheeple who think a few “big wigs” with 10,000 posts who act like gods know it all.  This is an example of do you own research, educate yourself decide accordingly.  

I also believe that those responsible should be at the very least named and shamed out of principle. Some may disagree with that and that’s fine BUT there is no excuse and people need to be held accountable. What is the difference between a fake helmet sold as original and a fake painting sold as original? I commend Doug and other individuals who had the integrity, means, and high moral fiber to have done what was right for the hobby, to debunk an issue that was out of control. These helmets will be around long after we are all gone. The next generations of collectors shouldn’t have to deal with more B.S. than is already out there when it comes to fakes in this hobby. I think anyone who has an interest in collecting helmets should take 2 minutes to make an account and read what Doug posted. Ignorance isn’t bliss in this capacity. Do yourself a favor. I think Troy brought up a good point it would be behoove of current and former owners of these CR’s to get together and start taking steps. I hope some of the individuals are able to get back some of there money.  And yes it’s definitely interesting that one recently sold…maybe someone trying to offload one before the proverbial storm hits.

 

Ray



#45 KASTAUFFER

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 09:30 AM

I've said this before, but its situations like this that make me glad I collect things that are not painted and do not rust.

 

Kurt



#46 Bugme

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:25 AM

Ray175INF pretty much said it all. What is sad, from my point of view, is that there were a only few U.S. helmet collectors who were trying to bring this conversation concerning COA's and XRF to the forefront. It was bound to affect us since it was already slithering in but, most collectors simply ignored it or hoped it would just go away.

I won't say this often but, credit needs to be given where credit is due: Several TR helmet collectors faced huge amounts of ridicule, censoring, ostracizing, personal attacks and bans on other forums for simply fighting the status quo and questioning it. While Doug is getting high praises, and most deservedly so, he was only one of many who were involved. We did what we could here on the U.S. side of this and thankfully, two "in the know guys" concerning XRF Spectroscopy are members on this forum: wildcat123(Tyler) and Hurtgenwald(Brad). They may not realize it but, some of their information helped us get a confession from one of the XRFacts founders that the technology was pretty useless on U.S. helmets.

Well done to those who spoke up and held on... Well done!



#47 zippy144

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:49 AM

Hi

 

I can think of 1 story here in UK of a collector taking a dealer to court and winning, i think there is a thread on the WAF aout it.

 

This guy started buying RAF dambusters stuff, this certain dealer sold 1 item to him and realised he was an unexperienced collector and took him to the cleaners with all sorts of named items that suddenly came out the woodwork and all turned out to be fake. The items got tested and it was proved that all the writing had been written by the same person.

This was enough to take the dealer court and he won...

 

The frustrating thing i find is we have all been there and done it with fake items, but we learn from it, invest in the right books, do the homework and find the good people out there who you can trust to deal with. But so many people do not want to do the research and invest in the books to gain the knowledge the right way, it is hardly suprising it is these people that get caught out...

 

Great Thread...

 

Regards

 

Tom



#48 willysmb44

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 11:42 AM

There's no limit to what people will say to your face when trying to make a sale.

When I was new in the hobby, someone tried to sell me a "D-Day gas suit" which was clearly just some modern coveralls. I said it wasn't WW2 (this was before all the good reference books were out and a lot of gear simply wasn't known by most collectors unless they saw it in person) for one primary reason: It had a NATO tag inside it. That clearly didn't exist during WW2. Several others were in the store and stopped when I said that. The store owner stuck to his guns, saying I was simply a new collector who had no idea what he was talking about and insisted it was exactly what he'd said it was.



#49 Bugme

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 08:28 PM

To the collector, knowledge is power and power will save you money. Of course ignorance is easier but, much more expensive, just ask anyone with a C-SS helmet.



#50 Morlok

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 06:48 AM

I took the time to join & read it. I'll have to read it a few more times! I started out with German helmets. My very first purchase, with no info or education, was a VERY obvious fake. That helmet sits front & center in my collection. It is by far the best education I could have received on this hobby! I was never bitter...I simply vowed to never let it happen again. I then spent oodles of time & $$ on research material & self-education. I added a dozen German helmets to my collection & have long since switched to US items. I still pick up research material on a regular basis.

My wife still laughs. Of all the Christmas & birthday gifts she has given over the years, a cheap $5 jewelers loupe is the one I use the most! I never go "hunting" without it!


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