PATCH: French Motorized Artillery Insignia

[world war I nerd]

French Motorized Artillery Insignia in the A.E.F.

Does anybody have any information as to why the French Motorized Artillery insignia was worn by AEF soldiers from various units during WW I?

 

So far I’ve seen this badge worn on the left sleeve of Doughboy service coats belonging to the 85^th Infantry Division, Advanced Sector of the Service of Supply (SOS), and by men wearing Signal Corps collar discs.

 

Bay State Militaria claimed that the insignia was worn by AEF enlisted men who attended the French Tank School. If so, in what were they instructed … liaison – infantry tactics with tanks – battlefield communications – something else?

 

Any information and all educated guesses are welcome.

 

Photo No. 01: Both of these soldiers wear Signal Corps collar discs on their collars and one of them is wearing an officer’s Air Service collar device on his overseas cap, which suggests that they were attached to, or on temporary duty with an aero squadron. If so, why the tank insignia?

 

Photo courtesy of the Rogier Van de Hoef collection

[world war I nerd]

Photo No. 02: Close ups of the above insignia.

[world war I nerd]

Photo No. 03: Three service coats, two from the 85^th Infantry Division, and one from the SOS, each bearing a French Motorized Artillery insignia … why?

 

Perhaps, a unit history for the 85^th Division will provide an answer?

 

Photos courtesy of Bay State Militaria.com and Advance Guard Militaria.com

[world war I nerd]

Photo No. 04: Close ups of the above insignia.

[world war I nerd]

Photo No. 05: Another Doughboy from an unidentified AEF organization whose service coat had been adorned with the French tank insignia and two more examples of the French Motorized Artillery insignia.

 

I’m looking forward to any information that anyone can dig up. Thanks for looking … World war I Nerd

[jagjetta]

Brian:

 

The patch was, indeed, granted to US soldiers who completed training at Recloses. It is often found on uniforms of 85th Division men (I have one in my collection), usually 338 and 340th Infantry soldiers. Here are a few details on 85th men who completed training:

Bradbury Robinson (USA)- College Football player who is notable for throwing the first legal forward-pass in American Football-history and was the game’s first recognised ‘Triple-Threat’, namely a player who was considered equally proficient in all three skills-running, passing and kicking. He threw the first forward-pass (reaching 67-yards) at a game in 1906 when he was a player for St Louis University. In WW1, Robinson enlisted in the US Army and was commissioned as a Captain. He was placed in charge of L Company of 340th Infantry Regiment attached to the 85th Division. Arriving in France in July 1918, he worked as an instructor at the inter-Allied Tank School at Recloses before his Company was ordered to the front at the start of November. He and his unit were in the trenches for the last ten days of the war.

 

George Grimes was sent to France with Company K of the 85th Infantry Division in August 1918. He was assigned to the Inter-Allied Tank Center at Recloses and became an instructor in the operation of tanks.

 

Ralph Plummer - USA
B 20 Dec 1896 Washtenaw Co; Son of Frank & Alice Plummer; Ent serv 25 Aug 1918 Howell; Sent to Cp Custer; Trsf from Tank Corps to MTC; Disch 18 July 1919 Cp Sherman O.

 

Harvey Arnold Clark - USA
Pvt Co I 340 Inf 85 Div; b 23 Feb 1891 Lansing of J Franklin & Anna M (Greenaway) Clark; Husband of Marguerite (Potts) Clark; Ent serc 28 May 1918 Howell; Sen to Cp Custer, Mills; Overseas 9 mo; Sta at Recloses and Pont-a-Rousseau; Disch 22 Apr 1919 Custer; Father of Lawrence and Allen.

 

Frederick John Schuster - USA
Pvt Co I 340 Inf 85 Div; b 16 Nov 1895 Greytown O; Son of William Schuster; Ent serv 27 May 1918 Howell; Sent to Custer; Overseas 8 mo; Sta at Inter-Allied School of Instruction Recloses; Disch 22 Apr 1919 Custer.

 

Ralph Emerson Shakleton - USA
Pvt Co M 338 Inf 85 Div; b 16 Jan 1890 Redford of Frank & Emily M Shakleton; Ent serv 2 Sept 1917 Howell; Sent to Custer; Trsd to Hdq Co; Overseas 8 mo; Sta at Recloses and Toul; Fought in Toul Sector; Disch 12 Apr 1919 Custer.

 

Clarence Soper - USA
Pvt Co I 340 Inf 85 Div; B 16 Jun 1892 Detroit of Maurice & Matilda Soper; Ent serv 27 May 1918 Howell; Sent to Custer; Overseas 8 mo; Sta at Inter-Allied Instruction Center Recloses; Disch 22 Apr 1919 Custer.

 

Those are just a sampling of the men who completed training. The CLINCHER, however, on the insignia is found on the back of the roster of the 2nd Bn, 2nd Rgt, Air Service Mechanics, US regular Army attached to the French Tank Corps:

Extract of General Estienne's speech:

"I send to all officers and soldiers my most cordial thanks in memory of our fraternity of arms which unite us forever, and I beg them to accept as a mark of recognition the right to wear the insignia of the French L'Artillerie d' Assault."

Le General Commandant L'A.S.

P.O. le Chef d'Etat-Major:

[signature]

 

Attached and following are some examples of uniforms and insignia

340th Infantry Co. I,

 

340th Infantry Co. M

 

340th Infantry Co K

 

 

 

[jagjetta]

Two Advance Sector Service of Supply soldiers with the distinction:

 

 

[world war I nerd]

If anybody knew anything about this insignia, I knew that you would John. But please forgive me as I'm still a bit confused.

 

Was the insignia officially awarded to members of the AEF who attended the French Tank School or unofficially awarded as a ceremonial thank you to the Doughboys by General Estienenne? (I'm assuming that he was a French general) or was it both?

 

In addition, do you have any idea what the men were instructed in while attending the school?

[jagjetta]

The linch-pin to the attribution, however:

 

 

[jagjetta]

WWI Nerd: Not sure what their instruction was, other than some anecdotal accounts from 85th Division soldiers saying they learned how to operate and drive the light tanks. The Air Service Mechanics, however, received their distinction because they became "tank mechanics".

[world war I nerd]

Thanks John, for your input ... you have shed some light on an insignia that I knew very little about.

 

I wonder if the men of the 85th Division were sent to the tank school based simply on the fact that they may have been the closest in regard to location or if their was some bigger plan to use that division in conjunction with French or AEF tanks during a future battle that may have never taken place because the war ended.

 

By the way, John, is there anything from WW I that you do not have a photograph of?

[mikes militaria]

 

I got this from a guy a few years ago. A young guy just getting started collecting. He moved to Maine and is out of touch. He said it is a US tank unit. Possibly attended the French Armor school. Possibly trained by the French to teach US troops, something to that extent. He was vague, no exact unit was given. Sorry for the bad picture.

 

Mike

[jagjetta]

Thanks John, for your input ... you have shed some light on an insignia that I knew very little about.

 

I wonder if the men of the 85th Division were sent to the tank school based simply on the fact that they may have been the closest in regard to location or if their was some bigger plan to use that division in conjunction with French or AEF tanks during a future battle that may have never taken place because the war ended.

 

By the way, John, is there anything from WW I that you do not have a photograph of?

 

I can't find my notes on the 85th Division connection, but I THINK you are absolutely right: It was a way to add a large group of men into the training for an anticipated push to the Rhine. If i recall correctly, there is a paragraph about it in the 85th Divisional history. Perhaps some of our Custer Division enthusiasts can shed some light.

 

As to photographs...my collection is insignificant as compared to others out there! I think a few really great photo collections are held by other forum members, Bruce, Brennan, and Chuck come to mind right off the top of my head. What I have pales in comparison to those guys! Regardless, I am always happy to share, especially when it comes to linking up the history with the memory of those soldiers who lived it.

 

Treat 'em Rough!

John

 

Oh...attached is a photo of an unnamed group in my collection:

 

[jagjetta]

 

This was drawn by an 85th Division soldier, Charles Goedicke. He noted, "Given to the troops by the French Chief Commander for their good work. Made of gold cord and worn on right arm."

 

[Shenkursk]

When researching one of these sets years ago, I ran across a reference that indicated 3rd Battalion of the 340th Infantry in particular was detached for Tank training. Wish I could remember where I found that, but I do recall it was one of those big "ah-HA!!" moments.

[jagjetta]

The French repair unit in Bourron was the GPAS (Grand Parc d'Artillerie d'Assaut). Also at Bourron was the BIAS (Bataillon d'Instruction d'Artillerie d'Assaut) and the Alllied tank training center of Recloses Supposedly, the Tank Training Center gave 5-day training courses.

Interestingly, Estienne received the DSM for his work with the Tank Corps. His citation:

ESTIENNE, JEAN B. E.

Citation:

The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Army Distinguished Service Medal to Jean B. E. Estienne, Major General, French Army, for exceptionally meritorious and distinguished service in a position of great responsibility to the Government of the United States, during World War I. As Chief of Tank Corps, French Army, General Estienne manifested a constant desire to aid our Tank Service in every possible way, assisting in the instruction of American officers at Recloses and giving us the benefit of his extensive experience by his valuable advice. He also came to our assistance at a critical time when he helped secure a large number of tanks from the French Government, thereby rendering invaluable services to the American Expeditionary Forces.

--War Department, General Orders No. 126 (1919)

 

[jagjetta]

 

 

Photo No. 01: Both of these soldiers wear Signal Corps collar discs on their collars and one of them is wearing an officer’s Air Service collar device on his overseas cap, which suggests that they were attached to, or on temporary duty with an aero squadron. If so, why the tank insignia?

 

Photo courtesy of the Rogier Van de Hoef collection

 

 

What a great image and my guess that these are members of the 2nd Regiment of Air Service Mechanics. Other photos of men from the regiment show them wearing Signal Corps collar devices. Several companies of the 2nd Regiment were detached for service with the French to act as tank mechanics.

 

They were put to work at the the repair center in Bourron.This was built after the March 1918 German offensive when all the Renault FT tanks from Champlieu were deployed to Cercottes. Bourron is 8 km south of Fontainebleau. The camp was between Bourron, Recloses, Villiers-sous-Recloses and Grez.

All Renault FT coming from the factories were tested at Bourron. It was also the repair center for Renault FTs returning from the front.

[jagjetta]

These are men of the 8th Co, 2nd Regiment Mechanics at Bourron. We can see a Signal Corps disc on the collar of one of the fellows in the center of the photo.

 

[jagjetta]

IMG_0250.jpg

 

I got this from a guy a few years ago. A young guy just getting started collecting. He moved to Maine and is out of touch. He said it is a US tank unit. Possibly attended the French Armor school. Possibly trained by the French to teach US troops, something to that extent. He was vague, no exact unit was given. Sorry for the bad picture.

 

Mike

Mike,

That is a neat patch and I suspect, is just as the collector described to you! Too bad we don't know more of the background, but pretty certain he would have worked on / or trained with FT light tanks.

 

Treat 'em rough!

John

[Eric]

Great topic. Have seen this insignia a few times before and never quite knew what it was. Perhaps intresting to share, came across this one on ebay.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221932380761&alt=web You can still see the blue fabric attached to the patch. And it has a name, perhaps Jagjetta can find info on him.

 

Eric

[jagjetta]

Great topic. Have seen this insignia a few times before and never quite knew what it was. Perhaps intresting to share, came across this one on ebay.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=221932380761&alt=web You can still see the blue fabric attached to the patch. And it has a name, perhaps Jagjetta can find info on him.

 

Eric

 

Eric,

Thanks! Yes this one has been bouncing around for a while.

 

I haven't been able to pin down the guy. The name looks like Emmet D. Engles or Engled, Woodstock, VA

 

Looking close at the French patch, one can see remnants of the horizon blue fabric.

 

The interesting thing about these French patches on US tunics that I have noticed--and not to the extent that I would say it is the only way I have seen them--is that they are on NON-Tank Corps uniforms: That is, they seem to be a "tank" distinction worn by troops other than Tank Corps members. Like I said, I haven't seen enough of these to say that IS the pattern, but it is one for us to keep an eye on.

 

JAG

[cthomas]

John -

Thank you VERY much for sharing your knowledge on the subject. This is a topic that's always intrigued me, but I always seem to be pulled in another direction during my aviation studies.

[world war I nerd]

When it comes to deciphering why certain articles, such as the French tank insignia were worn or used by the men of the AEF, every little scrap of information becomes an important piece of the puzzle.

 

When enough seemingly insignificant scraps come together in one location, like this thread ... only then, like a Polaroid photograph developing in front of our eyes, does the complete picture begin to emerge.

 

The overall story of the French tank insignia as worn in the AEF is still a bit blurry, but we at least now have a better understanding of its purpose.

 

Thanks to everybody who added images and information to this post.

[Allan H.]

I picked up this piece a few years ago and started a thread on it, but didn't get much information other than I was told that it dated from around 1919. This was sewn to a WWI US overseas cap.

 

Allan

[mccooper]

Outstanding thread!! Thank you for the fascinating information regarding both the 85th and the ASM - and thanks to the Forum for its being there for those of us bitten by the WWI bug. Please, no cure required.

 

I had passed on the eBay tanker uniform as I was unsure of the French patch - looked as if it had been cut out of the blue oval to which it might have been sewn originally. However, after reading your comments, it brings up another question. Was the French patch also awarded to American tankers, or only those detached from other units for training?

 

Thank you again for a most edifying thread; I love these unusual circumstances and assignments. All the best,

 

mccooper