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A.E. F. ‘Trench’ & Overseas Caps


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#376 doyler

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 09:24 PM

2019_0511RAIDERUSMC0006.JPG

 

2019_0511RAIDERUSMC0004.JPG



#377 cwnorma

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:44 AM

Doyler,

 

Great cap!  Good lawd I love WW1--its just nuts.

 

On the surface you appear to have a Machine Gun, Infantry (blue & red piping [Machine Gun, Cavalry would have been yellow & red]) officer's overseas cap.  But that's where it gets interesting!  Clearly its last use was by an enlisted man assigned to a Train unit with that disk!

 

Who knows how he came to have it.  

 

Maybe your doughboy thought the same as you--the piping matched the unit patch colors.

 

Perhaps he was formerly an officer and got busted?

 

Coming together with a named estate group its clearly "good."  Its just one of those things that will always be a head-scratcher.  No doubt he wore it proudly--despite it being clearly outside of regulations.

 

Chris



#378 BEAST

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 02:12 PM

Doyler, thats a very interesting cap. I tend to agree that the soldier modified it to match the SSI. Was he an Indiana vet?

#379 doyler

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:24 PM

Doyler, thats a very interesting cap. I tend to agree that the soldier modified it to match the SSI. Was he an Indiana vet?

 

Thanks.There are several photos and a stack of letters.Appears he was from west Virginia....Co A 113 Ammo Train 38th Division.



#380 doyler

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 06:10 PM

Here is one of the uniforms.He was a Sergeant.Both uniforms are patched and are British marked.

 

Im sure the cap piping was done to match the patch colors.This bullion and velvet patch is stunning

 

 

2019_0512RAIDERUSMC0044.JPG

 

2019_0512RAIDERUSMC0044.JPG



#381 doyler

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 06:11 PM

2019_0512RAIDERUSMC0046.JPG



#382 BEAST

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:22 AM

Here is one of the uniforms.He was a Sergeant.Both uniforms are patched and are British marked.

 

Im sure the cap piping was done to match the patch colors.This bullion and velvet patch is stunning

 

 

attachicon.gif2019_0512RAIDERUSMC0044.JPG

 

attachicon.gif2019_0512RAIDERUSMC0044.JPG

 

Ron, you are correct, that patch is stunning! Thanks for posting this group.


Edited by BEAST, 13 May 2019 - 05:22 AM.


#383 Russell 1910

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 04:54 AM

A US "second pattern" cap, fully lined in beige/khaki/OD cotton twill with size stamp in the crown. It appears that the turban sides of the cap are made of one piece of wool with a seam at the back. The crown is more rounded that the other styles with more pointed shape. Also there appears to be a welt sewn in between the turban body side and the crown. The wrap around shawl piece is made from a different color wool. The wool of the entire cap appears to be of a more loosely woven variety than the wool melton seen on the unlined caps.

 

1.jpg

 

2.jpg



#384 Russell 1910

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 04:55 AM

More photos.

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  • 4.jpg


#385 Russell 1910

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 04:56 AM

More photos. Top and front of cap with shawl pulled down.

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  • 7.jpg


#386 Russell 1910

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 04:58 AM

Photos of the liner which is secured to the crown and sewn around the lower edge of the cap.

 

6.jpg

 

8.jpg



#387 TrenchRat

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 08:07 AM

These Quartermaster photos probably don't add too much to our knowledge base:

 

attachicon.gif165-WW-541B-008.jpg

US Army Overseas cap made by Sigmund Eisner Company, Red Bank, New Jersey.

Photographed Sept. 5, 1918

 

 

attachicon.gif165-WW-541B-005.jpg

US Army Overseas cap made by the Gauss-Langenberg Company,  St. Louis, Missouri. 

Photographed July 16, 1918

 

attachicon.gif165-WW-541B-003.jpg

Winter Army Cap

Made of weather-proof shelter tent duck. Underside of pull-down band lined with Army cloth.

Manufactured by Gauss-Langenberg Hat Co., St. Louis, Mo. 

 

 

Good day,

Regarding the Winter Army Cap posted here; is this in fact a WWI cap?

I have seen this type of hat in a few places where only the buckle has a patent date of 1918. Some have the "square" attachment points for the neck strap (such as this one)  and some have rectangular attachment points. I have seen both styles on caps with WWII dates. The buckle appears on WWII dates caps as well...

So, if this cap was produced for WWI how does one tell if it is in fact of that era?
 



#388 world war I nerd

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 10:18 AM

Russell 1910, thanks for adding the excellent photos of your second pattern U.S. made overseas cap ... an excellent example!

 

TrenchRat, very sorry for this belated reply to your question regarding the winter field cap with a buckle rather than tape ties. The short answer, I'm sorry to say, is that I don't know.

 

As previously mention in this topic there were three specifications of the Winter Field Cap adopted by the U.S. Army prior to WW I. They are Specification No. 999, adopted in September of 1909 - Specification No. 1047, adopted in October of 1909 - and Specification No. 1215, adopted in September of 1914. All of those cape featured cloth ties.

 

During WW I, a fourth specification (Specification No. 1338) of the Winter Field Cap was adopted in either late 1917 or early 1918. Unfortunately, I have no information regarding the 1917 specification cap. However, all WW I era period photos of the Winter Field Cap show that they were all made with cloth ties, ie. no buckle. Based on that fact, it's probably safe to assume that the 1917 pattern Winter Field Cap also had cloth ties. A clothing study made by the AEF during the winter of 1917/1918 came to the conclusion that most of the winter clothing then issued was too light weight. Thus, I suspect that the 1917 specification for the Winter Field Cap called for the cap's lining to be made from a heavier weight of olive drab woolen material.

 

At some point in 1919 the specifications for the Winter Field Cap were, once again, changed (Specification No. 15-3-1338). This is another specification on which I have no reliable information. The next sentence is pure speculation, but it is possible that this specification was the one that incorporated the buckle.



#389 TrenchRat

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 05:20 AM

Russell 1910, thanks for adding the excellent photos of your second pattern U.S. made overseas cap ... an excellent example!

 

TrenchRat, very sorry for this belated reply to your question regarding the winter field cap with a buckle rather than tape ties. The short answer, I'm sorry to say, is that I don't know.

 

As previously mention in this topic there were three specifications of the Winter Field Cap adopted by the U.S. Army prior to WW I. They are Specification No. 999, adopted in September of 1909 - Specification No. 1047, adopted in October of 1909 - and Specification No. 1215, adopted in September of 1914. All of those cape featured cloth ties.

 

During WW I, a fourth specification (Specification No. 1338) of the Winter Field Cap was adopted in either late 1917 or early 1918. Unfortunately, I have no information regarding the 1917 specification cap. However, all WW I era period photos of the Winter Field Cap show that they were all made with cloth ties, ie. no buckle. Based on that fact, it's probably safe to assume that the 1917 pattern Winter Field Cap also had cloth ties. A clothing study made by the AEF during the winter of 1917/1918 came to the conclusion that most of the winter clothing then issued was too light weight. Thus, I suspect that the 1917 specification for the Winter Field Cap called for the cap's lining to be made from a heavier weight of olive drab woolen material.

 

At some point in 1919 the specifications for the Winter Field Cap were, once again, changed (Specification No. 15-3-1338). This is another specification on which I have no reliable information. The next sentence is pure speculation, but it is possible that this specification was the one that incorporated the buckle.

 

Hey there Brian, sorry for not seeing this reply sooner.

 

I just acquired one of these winter caps in question here.

Firstly, the maker is the same as mentioned in the original post that I commented on; Gauss-Langenberg.

Secondly, the buckle itself has a 1918 patent date.

And thirdly, the label carries a September 1918 date. Sadly, there is no specification number on the label.

The date is likely a contract date which may or may not mean the hat was manufactured in 1918.

I will provide pix later on...

 

 



#390 TrenchRat

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 05:10 AM

 

Hey there Brian, sorry for not seeing this reply sooner.

 

I just acquired one of these winter caps in question here.

Firstly, the maker is the same as mentioned in the original post that I commented on; Gauss-Langenberg.

Secondly, the buckle itself has a 1918 patent date.

And thirdly, the label carries a September 1918 date. Sadly, there is no specification number on the label.

The date is likely a contract date which may or may not mean the hat was manufactured in 1918.

I will provide pix later on...

 

 

 

Attached Images

  • 1.jpg
  • 2.jpg
  • 3.jpg


#391 atb

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 10:03 AM

Is this a USMC version of the winter cap? Advanced Guard Militaria has one labeled as such and the description says it's "forest green." The interior is fully lined with light OD fabric.

Winter Cap Image 1.jpg Winter Cap Image 2.png



#392 TrenchRat

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 10:18 AM

Is this a USMC version of the winter cap? Advanced Guard Militaria has one labeled as such and the description says it's "forest green." The interior is fully lined with light OD fabric.

attachicon.gifWinter Cap Image 1.jpgattachicon.gifWinter Cap Image 2.png

 

atb,

 

Yes, there is in fact a USMC version...and the exterior and interior is all Forest Green wool.

The AGM hat looks like the correct pattern for the USMC version (i.e., all wool inside and out as opposed to the 'army' version with an all wool interior and cotton duck exterior).

 

The hat you show here arrears to have a cotton interior?


Edited by TrenchRat, 05 September 2019 - 10:33 AM.


#393 atb

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 11:51 AM

Yes, the interior is fully lined with cotton duck. There is no sign of a tag or label.

#394 atb

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 04:46 AM

Yes, the interior is fully lined with cotton duck. There is no sign of a tag or label.


If the color is forest green rather than OD (I can't decide), could this cap be a lined variation of the USMC winter cap?

#395 world war I nerd

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 06:52 AM

Glen, thanks for posting pics of your 1918 dated Winter Field Cap with buckled ear flaps.

 

I wonder if that was a late war specification that never made it overseas? I've seen dozens and dozens of period photos, taken both in the U.S. and overseas, of soldiers wearing Winter Field Caps, but not one of them utilized a buckle. The flaps were all secured by the more common cloth ties. Just because we haven't seen a buckled cap in period photos yes, doesn't mean that they were not worn, but if they were worn, there must not have been very many of them in circulation.




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