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.45 Shot Cartridges, M12, M15.

Started by kphfun , Aug 12 2008 07:48 PM

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#1 kphfun

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 07:48 PM

Here is one of a few items I got from an estate sale a while ago. It is a pack of 24 rounds in its wax paper wrap and very well marked as pics show. Who would have been issuied these and what might be their worth..Thanks, Kevin

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#2 mpguy80/08

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 08:31 PM

I'm pretty sure these were probably included in a survival vest of some kind. From the looks of it, they are similar to the shot shells for pistols in use today. Shot shells, or "snake shot" are a pistol caliber equivalent to the full sized shot gun shell and as the packaging states, are used for hunting small game. These are a lot more handy than a regualr round when trying to kill that snake or bring down a bird in a survival situation. Look at the effective range listed on the package...

Any one else?

Wayne

#3 A.B.

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 11:00 PM

Right, Wayne. I can't tell from the photo, kph, but those are probably M-15 shot shells (elongated, slightly rebated case), produced after October, 1943, at the Remington Arms Bridgeport factory. (Remington also made the substitute standard in Bridgeport, the thinly brass-clad round nose M-12 shot shells.)
At that time (October, '43) the warning label was changed to what we see here, from what had been a warning printed in English, German, and Japanese: "not for use against enemy troops." Containing 7 1/2 shot, they were issued in the USAAF B-2 and B-4 emergency kits, beginning in 1943; on July, 1943 the color of the lacquered wad used to close the case mouth was changed from yellow to vermillion. They came with an instruction sheet, for manual loading in the M1911/A1.

They were not considered a success, too much dispersion.

ref: Joe Poyer, "The Model 1911 and 1911A1..."

Cheers,
AB

PS:Oops, I didn't notice that you ID' the "M-15" in the title, it's late...

Edited by A.B., 12 August 2008 - 11:06 PM.


#4 Charlie Flick

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 12:24 PM

Kevin:

This .45 shot ammunition was a component of the USAAF C-1 Survival Vest of WW2. The pic below (from the site of Lightning Hawk Militaria) illustrates the vest and its contents, including the ammo.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

Posted Image

#5 kphfun

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 06:06 PM

Thank you Charlie as that was the info I was asking, not what a stick match is and how it works, although with good intent. Any Idea what this might be worth as it must be somewhat rare as I have not seen it before in all the shows I have been to. Anybody collect this gear?.Cheers, Kev

#6 Charlie Flick

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 07:33 AM

Kevin:

I have had a couple boxes in my collection for years so I have not paid close attention to current prices on these. I would not consider this ammo rare, but they are interesting to M1911A1 collectors, ammo guys, and survival equipment guys. If I saw a box at a show I would expect it to be priced in the $50-75 range.

HTH.

Charlie Flick

#7 Dutchman

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 02:21 AM

I've had a few sealed boxes of this for many years. Not real prevalent anymore.

The box that was open of the 4 or 5 I had are all RA4 Remington 1944. They had to be single loaded. I'd hate to have my life depend on killing small game shot with this stuff as it isn't very effective no matter what the box says. I've shot it in a Model 1917 S&W. But its genuine USGI nonetheless.
http://images6.fotki.com/v78/photos/2/28344/157842/m15a-vi.jpg

This stuff shoots real good.

http://images18.fotki.com/v270/photos/2/28344/157842/sc45-vi.jpg

#8 37thguy

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 03:31 AM

Don't fire too much of the shot shells through your pistol. They probably have steel shot which will play hell with the inside of the barrel :thumbsup:

#9 45B20

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:27 PM

Dutchman
Your M15 45ACP Shot Cartridges have approx 108 to 118 7½ chilled lead shot ea. The M15 was adopted 30 Dec.43. To improve the pattern, in 1945 the Army Air Force included a smooth choke-bore barrel in the ‘jungle kit’.. The AAF’s B-2 or B-4 emergency kit or a variation of, not sure, I am not into the emergency kit stuff. If you shoot any of this ammo, just remember the primers (FA#70) are corrosive.

Years ago when the M12 & M15 45 shot cartridges were readily available, I use to ream out and polish pitted pistol and revolver barrels for customers who would use this ammo. Even then, about 25ft. was about max for small birds and squirrels. Today, such alterations of handguns is quite illegal.

I tried out a few boxes of this stuff, interesting but not exciting. Up to 5ft. the shot column would penetrate one side of a GI 5gal Gas Can, at 10ft., shot would bounce off, I shot this test from protection. With an unaltered barrel,, leading would start to show after about a box. Very worn, but unaltered M1911 barrels, would pattern better and did not appear to lead as much.

References::: “Record of Army Ordnance Research and Development” Vol 2, Book 2,, “History of Modern US Military Small Arms Material” by Hackley, Woodin & Scranton, and TM 9-1990, “Small-Arms Ammunition” Sept 1947.

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#10 kwill

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 12:27 PM

Dutchman
Your M15 45ACP Shot Cartridges have approx 108 to 118 7½ chilled lead shot ea. The M15 was adopted 30 Dec.43. To improve the pattern, in 1945 the Army Air Force included a smooth choke-bore barrel in the ‘jungle kit’.. The AAF’s B-2 or B-4 emergency kit or a variation of, not sure, I am not into the emergency kit stuff. If you shoot any of this ammo, just remember the primers (FA#70) are corrosive.

Years ago when the M12 & M15 45 shot cartridges were readily available, I use to ream out and polish pitted pistol and revolver barrels for customers who would use this ammo. Even then, about 25ft. was about max for small birds and squirrels. Today, such alterations of handguns is quite illegal.

I tried out a few boxes of this stuff, interesting but not exciting. Up to 5ft. the shot column would penetrate one side of a GI 5gal Gas Can, at 10ft., shot would bounce off, I shot this test from protection. With an unaltered barrel,, leading would start to show after about a box. Very worn, but unaltered M1911 barrels, would pattern better and did not appear to lead as much.

References::: “Record of Army Ordnance Research and Development” Vol 2, Book 2,, “History of Modern US Military Small Arms Material” by Hackley, Woodin & Scranton, and TM 9-1990, “Small-Arms Ammunition” Sept 1947.

45B20


45B20,

Have you ever seen one of the smooth bore military issue barrels? I know they were tested, approved and a number assigned but I'm not sure any of them actually made it into service. I've been looking for years and have not found one yet. I've also checked with many of the guys who study and collect emergency kit stuff and they've never seen one either.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

#11 45B20

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 01:48 PM

Kevin
I do not remember ever seeing one, all I have are written accounts. I have never really looked for one, so they could be out there. Most of the kits had a printed inventory sheet to go into the kit. Have you ever seen this barrel listed on one of those.

If you ever find one of those barrels, please let us know.

45B20

#12 henry2

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 02:51 AM

the barrel should have been in the box the ammo came in..there was a company in the 1981 era made up those shot shells and barrels for the 1911 pistol for the survival movement back then in that time frame ..

the story goes that the guy who made up the ammo father was a pilot in ww2 and they where issused those shells and a barrel kit to put into the 1911 pistol for survival hunting on the inlands that they flew over..
also the box was to have a letter in japanese langauge that the ammo was used for hunting and not for use againest personal ..

#13 El Bibliotecario

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 07:51 PM

I read an article ages ago showing how to make such .45 shot loads by shortening .30-06 rifle brass to the proper length and swaging down the neck--this could be accomplished with a workbench vise and a supported washer with an appropriate diameter hole. I don't recall the loading data. I personally see this as a project for those with too much time on their hands.

#14 ordnance

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 12:32 AM

also the box was to have a letter in japanese langauge that the ammo was used for hunting and not for use againest personal ..


The earlier shot round was the T-23/M12 which was developed in late 1943. It was actually an adaptation of the Remington-Peters shot cartridge which had been used with the Thompson SMG prior to the war. It had a long paper bullet filled with 103 pellets of no. 7 1/2 shot and was slightly improved to carry 130-140 pellets in the military T-23 version. An R&D contract was given to Remington for 10,000 rounds of T-23 shot and they were delivered in boxes with these markings:

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A decision from the JAG Office concluded that the cautionary wording on the boxes "is not required as a matter of International Law" and was dropped from the production contract of 10,500,000 rounds of M12 cartridges and subsequent contracts of M15 ammo. I'm not sure if a letter was ever added to the survival kits or perhaps the person citing it had merely seen one of the earlier T-23 boxes.

The M12 was never fully satisfactory in the field. Just like the paper shotgun shells for 12 ga trench guns in service, the paper absorbed moisture and led to misfires and swollen rounds that wouldn't chamber. In addition, the .45 round's paper projectile would often fail to open properly, causing the pellets to group poorly. These problems led to the adoption of the M15 with its superior wad and waterproofing. As the M12 also had to be loaded individually because of its excessive length, nothing was lost or gained there with the flat nosed M15.

Posted Image

According to the Record of Army Ordnance R&D book, Volume 2 cited above, they also considered a special smooth, choke-bore barrel for use with the M12 ammo but rejected it as impractical. Also noted in this report was the adoption of such a barrel by Army Air Forces in 1945. And no, I've never seen one of the barrels either, so I kind of doubt they were ever produced and issued. I consider myself very lucky to have found one of the T-23 boxes and only know of a few others in collections.

#15 bob lamoreaux

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 04:29 AM

[quote name='45B20' date='Sep 5 2009, 02:27 AM' post='389585']
Dutchman
Today, such alterations of handguns is quite illegal.

Somewhat off the subject of U.S. military firearms but related to this matter, I have a "fuzzy" recollection of a revolver made in the late '50s or early '60s with -- I believe -- a smooth-bore, firing pistol caliber shot cartridges. I believe this was made (invented?) by a fellow named Harvey (last name). It created a bit of interest, I think as a "snake gun". I'm not sure that it ever got marketed as the Treasury Department (back in the old days it was the ATTD - Alcohol, Tobacco Tax Division) categorized these pistols as "short-barrel shotguns". They may have required a $200 tax stamp as such, rather than the $5 "any other weapon" tax stamp (which may have been introduced later. . .just not sure about when the AOW classification came into being).

I think the Harvey was "developed" as a more effective small game/snake killer as an advancement on the .45 acp shot cartridges. As far as I know, this firearm was never submitted for testing as a military (aircrewman) survival gun. My recollection is that these guns were fabricated from either medium- or large-frame S&Ws. Can't remember if they were "ported" (compensator slots cut in the end of the barrel).

Even though this really isn't a military firearms "history", I thought younger folks might like to know that there was an attempt at the commercial application of "shot pistols". Please note that I'm relying entirely upon my recollection of a firearm offered more than 40 or 50 years ago! I don't recall seeing much printed about the Harvey in years (decades!).

#16 kwill

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 04:39 AM

Thank you for posting. Good stuff!


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