Need help with Ithaca 1911A1 Serial Number Anomaly

[thebearpack]

If the intent is to defraud, someone must have thought all the effort and initial investment to be worth it.

How much time and money would it take to create this Ithaca from another version of 1911A1?

DAvid

 

 

Good question. Usually fakes are made with the intent of fooling someone into thinking they're getting a really rare piece, say a 37' Navy Colt or '45 JSB Colt as examples. I can't speak to the time and cost involved with turning a cheap commercial frame into this Ithaca but my assumption is that the humper did it to score more than the $1500-$2000 that nice, late war Ithacas bring. With that in mind, he probably hoped to sell it as a rare, unknown piece. His mistake was going so far past the last known number. Better to have tried a few numbers past, calling it an "unknown post-production example made for an Ithaca executive" or something.

[coolhandluke]

 

So, I'm curious as to why this fake Ithaca exists. Some questions I have are as follows:

 

At what price was it offered?

 

Was the high serial number called out as its main selling point?

 

Has the firearm been seen previously? (Has it been around a while, or seen in a display previously?)

 

I always encourage those who make any kind of firearm reproduction item to mark it appropriately. I wrote a very detailed reproduction standard that was adopted by The American Thompson Association. When reproduction items are not marked, the fog of time can change the perceived status of an item.

 

This "Ithaca" was probably made with intent to fool. Then again, I can offer some possible other reasons for its existence that are more innocent.

• Someone may have made this "Ithaca" for their own personal satisfaction, and then either passed away, or otherwise allowed it to enter the marketplace
• It could have been made as some kind of prop for a display
• Both these scenarios could have occurred prior to the item having enough value to generate a significant profit

 

 

 

 

David,

 

The firearm in question was available for sale at a LGS. After informing the owner of the issues surrounding the firearm, including the potential legal issues surrounding the altered serial number, I was informed that it was on consignment. The owner of the firearm stated that he was unaware that the Ithaca was a forgery and that it was as purchased "from a reputable dealer." It was my assumption based on the conversation with the shop owner, that the owner of the firearm likely wasn't accepting what he was being told as fact. The owner was also asked to pick the firearm up as the shop no longer wanted involved in the matter.

 

The asking price on the Ithaca was $1299, but I had worked out a trade deal that would have put me into it for less than $1000. If it would have not been for the possible illegality of owning the pistol, I still would have been interested in purchasing it at a fraction of the asking price. I cannot say if the "reputable dealer" may have originally used the serial number as a selling point. The owner also consigned a 1919 Colt with several issues (wrong slide, bead blasted, repro grips, WWII era slide stop and safety) so I am assuming that he was just likely naïve to the issues and was not intending to dupe anyone.

[dalbert]

It doesn't sound to me like the pistol was made with profit as the motivation. I would expect a much higher asking price if it were. We will probably never know for certain how this "Ithaca" came about. It likely could be that someone made it just to see if they could, and then either passed away, or otherwise sold it without fanfare at a reasonable price to dispose of it. That's my opinion, anyway...

 

David Albert

[email protected]

[kwill]

Only the first guy (the faker) has to make money. Once the fraud is discovered the price drops. There is a well known dealer on the west coast that has been doing this sort of thing for 30 years. (He may now be retired, although I see him at some shows still.) In the 1980s and 1990s he took many an Argentine Colt and "converted" them to pristine pre-war National Match pistols. I've got before and after pictures of some of them. However, not everything he did was a 10X profit margin or more. He also took low end S&W Victory Model revolvers, bought for maybe $200, added markings to create a rare variation, and sold them for $400-$500--just a quick way to double your money. He has been thrown out of several collector's organizations for this behavior. When caught by the S&W guys he said he was just creating "representative examples." The irony is that the guys doing the work for him were the equal (if not better) than Turnbull who does it as a legitimate business and gets huge prices for his "restorations." I put that in quotes because I guess I'm a bit of a purist and don't believe there is such a thing as a restoration. A restoration has exactly 0% original finish.

 

The "Ithaca" under discussion here could still be quite profitable at $1,299. There were lots of replacement slides made for M1911A1 pistols and they are relatively easy to come by. There are several on ebay and GunPoker right now for $150-$200. The receiver might have started life as an Essex or some other cheap substitute--another $200. Spend $100 for the barrel and small parts, plane the frame down, add the markings, slap on the replacement slide, dunk it in the parkerizing tank and make $700-$800. I know a "gunsmith" in San Antonio that does this on a regular basis.

 

Again, I hate this. It has ruined the hobby for me. Go to any of the 1911 centered forums and notice how often somebody posts, "Hey, look at this! I just bought it. What's it worth?" They haven't bought a book, haven't consulted anybody before the fact ("they might steal it out from under me") and then twist themselves into pretzels arguing with the knowledgeable collectors that point out that they've bought a POS.

[dalbert]

Only the first guy (the faker) has to make money. Once the fraud is discovered the price drops. There is a well known dealer on the west coast that has been doing this sort of thing for 30 years. (He may now be retired, although I see him at some shows still.) In the 1980s and 1990s he took many an Argentine Colt and "converted" them to pristine pre-war National Match pistols. I've got before and after pictures of some of them. However, not everything he did was a 10X profit margin or more. He also took low end S&W Victory Model revolvers, bought for maybe $200, added markings to create a rare variation, and sold them for $400-$500--just a quick way to double your money. He has been thrown out of several collector's organizations for this behavior. When caught by the S&W guys he said he was just creating "representative examples." The irony is that the guys doing the work for him were the equal (if not better) than Turnbull who does it as a legitimate business and gets huge prices for his "restorations." I put that in quotes because I guess I'm a bit of a purist and don't believe there is such a thing as a restoration. A restoration has exactly 0% original finish.

 

The "Ithaca" under discussion here could still be quite profitable at $1,299. There were lots of replacement slides made for M1911A1 pistols and they are relatively easy to come by. There are several on ebay and GunPoker right now for $150-$200. The receiver might have started life as an Essex or some other cheap substitute--another $200. Spend $100 for the barrel and small parts, plane the frame down, add the markings, slap on the replacement slide, dunk it in the parkerizing tank and make $700-$800. I know a "gunsmith" in San Antonio that does this on a regular basis.

 

Again, I hate this. It has ruined the hobby for me. Go to any of the 1911 centered forums and notice how often somebody posts, "Hey, look at this! I just bought it. What's it worth?" They haven't bought a book, haven't consulted anybody before the fact ("they might steal it out from under me") and then twist themselves into pretzels arguing with the knowledgeable collectors that point out that they've bought a POS.

 

kwill,

 

Good information. Well stated.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

[email protected]