9th Army Air Forces Glider pilot Dress uniform/grouping

[MasonK]

Brobs, the question is, are the bars on the star. The bars do not show, yet, on one side it appears the bar may be folded under. On the opposite side there is something vertical that is not the same shade blue as is the star and does not look like the bar.

 

Gliderman, Maybe you could elaborate on the significance of the presence of the bars, i.e. validity, value. Not being argumentative, as I know text doesn't translate well. I'm asking out of pure curiosity.

 

If it's value, in my opinion, I don't think it would have much of an impact. How often does a section of canvas from a glider become available?!

 

RSR, What a tremendous grouping! Good luck in acquiring it, and I'm looking forward to seeing the other material that shows up, and additional history of the serviceman.

 

Seems like it is fairly extensive based on your description. Will likely be one of those groupings to end all groupings!

[devincu]

It appears to me that the star has been rolled up for storage and after unrolling the piece they place some objects on the edges to keep it from curling up while taking the photos.

[BROBS]

exactly.. there are no bars on the star it is cut in a circle. However this makes no difference on the value of the group IMO.

 

truly an amazing find, I would be very proud to have a group like this in my collection.

-Brian

[RedStateRanger]

All,

Great inputs and I appreciate the continued interest as the grouping unfolds. Still working with the family and will post new picts as available. As for the Star, I'll take another look at the edges...but it appeared to me the bars were cut off. I don't yet have picts of the rope and hook, but have asked. Hope to have update soon on the contents of the footlockers.

[RedStateRanger]

The color bar is a British formation tab, look at Heros in our midst by forum member Jack Angolia, there is a section on the glider pilots and this type of tab. Paul

Thanks for the link! Will check it out.

[doinworkinvans]

I don't see how the bars or not on the star will change the value at all. I mean come on, it's a star cut from a glider that participated in combat.

 

Maybe just for history and research it may make a difference, but not value wise.

 

Daniel

[gliderman1]

I am not doubting the value of this collection as is. I also believe the family should be paid every dime thay are asking for this collection.

 

I doubt your statement that the star condition does not affect the total value of the collection.

 

Facts are that this known glider was painted with star and bars insignia, outlined in black. We see only the star with most of the black outline and the bars trimmed or cut off and missing.

 

Assume we have two collections of the same exact stuff and condition, except for the glider fabric.

 

#1 collection has a star cut in a circle with most of the black outline and the bars cut off.

#2 collection has the complete star and bars with black outline.

 

For which collection would you pay more? When you say the star condition would not affect the value, you are saying that #2 value would not be higher than #1.

[devincu]

I think what he was saying in the big picture it really doesn't matter that much. This is an outstanding historical grouping that is a wonderful piece of history with or without the bars being attached to the star. How often are you going to come across a star that has been cut off of a WWII glider that has seen combat to compare it? Maybe the bar would add a small amount of value be historically speaking it's not that big of a deal. IMHO

 

Devin

[BROBS]

I am not doubting the value of this collection as is. I also believe the family should be paid every dime thay are asking for this collection.

 

I doubt your statement that the star condition does not affect the total value of the collection.

 

Facts are that this known glider was painted with star and bars insignia, outlined in black. We see only the star with most of the black outline and the bars trimmed or cut off and missing.

 

Assume we have two collections of the same exact stuff and condition, except for the glider fabric.

 

#1 collection has a star cut in a circle with most of the black outline and the bars cut off.

#2 collection has the complete star and bars with black outline.

 

For which collection would you pay more? When you say the star condition would not affect the value, you are saying that #2 value would not be higher than #1.

find me collection #2...

 

there isn't one, so your point is moot.

-Brian

[doinworkinvans]

I am not doubting the value of this collection as is. I also believe the family should be paid every dime thay are asking for this collection.

 

I doubt your statement that the star condition does not affect the total value of the collection.

 

Facts are that this known glider was painted with star and bars insignia, outlined in black. We see only the star with most of the black outline and the bars trimmed or cut off and missing.

 

Assume we have two collections of the same exact stuff and condition, except for the glider fabric.

 

#1 collection has a star cut in a circle with most of the black outline and the bars cut off.

#2 collection has the complete star and bars with black outline.

 

For which collection would you pay more? When you say the star condition would not affect the value, you are saying that #2 value would not be higher than #1.

 

 

I would pay the same for both...I would know no difference.

 

I understand that your knowledge of glider's is high above the rest. Also that knowledge is appreciated here on the forum as it is certainly a niche'.

 

However, my point was to 9.9 collectors out of 10....this would be a centerpiece grouping. Just the fact that is has a piece of glider is powerful enough...whether its a star, or a star and bars, or a piece of the wing, or a tire. Its freaking awesome either way.

 

I think we all appreciate this type of group and love seeing it for what it is!

[pararaftanr2]

For what it's worth, the outline to the "star and bars" would have been insignia blue, the same color as the back round for the star, not black.

From the original poster's photo, it is probably one of the fuselage, not wing, insignia and would have been in the midst of the invasion markings. If actually removed by a French farmer, who presumably was not too well versed on American aircraft national insignia, I can see why he may have omitted the bars. Or, maybe there were just no bars to remove (see 243666 below)?

Either way, it is a killer grouping. Best of luck in your efforts.

Regards, Paul

 

 

 

[Eric Queen]

Philippe,

 

Are these the bars you are referring to? This is from a glider which participated in operation Varsity. This came directly from Ted Wilson who was with the 681st GFAB.

 

Tail number 340360 Chalk number 138. He landed in Wesel.

[Eric Queen]

2

[Eric Queen]

3

[Eric Queen]

4

[Eric Queen]

5

[Longbranch]

This would definitely classify as an awesome grouping. Incredible.

 

Here are some random thoughts:

 

To be honest, there are a lot of variables here which could greatly affect the value of the grouping. The pictures provided are NOT very good, so it's hard to really give you any solid advice on pricing. Does everything come with some really solid documentation (especially relating to the star)? Are the flight helmets named? What manufacturer made the sunglasses? Is there anything written onto the maps? Are there any interesting pictures included? Is there a picture of the vet wearing the included uniform? Etc. etc. etc. Lots of little things can seriously impact the value of the grouping. Value could range from $2,000 to $5,000 just for the items shown, depending on all of those little details.

 

Having said that, I actually feel the $2,000 dollar value is towards the low end. In fact, I'm betting that the star, with proper documentation and research, could fetch that much on its own to the proper buyer. It's a unique airborne-related object with an amazing D-Day connection. That put's it high on the list of desirable WW2 items. I mean seriously, where else can you find fabric star with solid provenance as having been removed from a CG-4A glider that participated in the D-Day invasion???

 

Also, do yourself a favor and BY NO MEANS POST THE NAME OF THE VET (or ANY further details about him or his unit) UNTIL YOU HAVE DECIDED TO ACQUIRE THE GROUPING!!! There are a lot of aggressive buyers/collectors that are very handy with Google searches, and could likely undermine any deal you are trying to make.

 

"Museum Quality" doesn't mean it needs to be in a museum. I have no idea why so many people think museums should be the only proprietor of our nation's history. I have seen some truly amazing public displays at the MVACA gun shows in the Kansas City area, as well as at the Kansas City ASMIC convention. A private collector is more than worthy of purchasing and preserving this grouping.

[gliderman1]

Paul, you are correct, my error on the black border. The black on the subject star is the leading edge of the forward most black zebra stripe. Also looks that there is some white on one edge which would be the forward most white zebra stripe.

 

Bars or no bars? The USAAF star was no bars prior to Sept 1943. New aircraft or existing aircraft in the continental US were required to add or have the bars at/after that time. The subject star, glider was built by Northwestern Aeronautical in 1944. It would have had the bars on the star coming out of the factory.

 

On the CG-4A gliders, 340360 and 243666: 43-40360 was the 1,782 article delivered by Ford. Based on Ford delivery quantitiies by month, that glider was delivered approximately the middle of April 1944 and would have had the bars on the star. 42-43666 was the 18th article built by Laister-Kauffmann. It would have been delivered approximately in March 1943. Being before Sept 1943 it had no bars on the star coming out of the factory. In that both these numbers were in Europe, they would have been crated for overseas shipment shortly after acceptence by the USAAF and placed in a depot avaialble for overseas. Therefore, the L-K glider arrived in Europe without the bars, and not being continental, adding the bars was not mandatory.

 

While collecting stuff, the L-K glider likely had the SCR-585 radio system installed where the Ford likely did not have the SCR-585 in it. Anyone have a BC-721 or other SCR-585 componants for sale?

 

Wilson's star and bars is an excellent speciman. It shows sign of white zebra stripe which appears to be a half stripe (Market recovery or prepared but unused for Market?). With the white to the left and no black to the right (can't tell if it is black or olive drab) it was cut from the starboard side, rear fuselage. If there is black to the right, it was cut from the port side. In that the fabric on the wings was doped and painted to the plywood it is not likely that the fabric was from a wing unless it has plywood on the back. In addition, the zebra stripes on the glider wings were inboard of the wing stars and there would be no stripe paint around the star area.

 

Brian, get your money out. Collection #2 is Wilson's fabric with the subject collection.

[RedStateRanger]

Paul, you are correct, my error on the black border. The black on the subject star is the leading edge of the forward most black zebra stripe. Also looks that there is some white on one edge which would be the forward most white zebra stripe.

 

Bars or no bars? The USAAF star was no bars prior to Sept 1943. New aircraft or existing aircraft in the continental US were required to add or have the bars at/after that time. The subject star, glider was built by Northwestern Aeronautical in 1944. It would have had the bars on the star coming out of the factory.

 

On the CG-4A gliders, 340360 and 243666: 43-40360 was the 1,782 article delivered by Ford. Based on Ford delivery quantitiies by month, that glider was delivered approximately the middle of April 1944 and would have had the bars on the star. 42-43666 was the 18th article built by Laister-Kauffmann. It would have been delivered approximately in March 1943. Being before Sept 1943 it had no bars on the star coming out of the factory. In that both these numbers were in Europe, they would have been crated for overseas shipment shortly after acceptence by the USAAF and placed in a depot avaialble for overseas. Therefore, the L-K glider arrived in Europe without the bars, and not being continental, adding the bars was not mandatory.

 

While collecting stuff, the L-K glider likely had the SCR-585 radio system installed where the Ford likely did not have the SCR-585 in it. Anyone have a BC-721 or other SCR-585 componants for sale?

 

Wilson's star and bars is an excellent speciman. It shows sign of white zebra stripe which appears to be a half stripe (Market recovery or prepared but unused for Market?). With the white to the left and no black to the right (can't tell if it is black or olive drab) it was cut from the starboard side, rear fuselage. If there is black to the right, it was cut from the port side. In that the fabric on the wings was doped and painted to the plywood it is not likely that the fabric was from a wing unless it has plywood on the back. In addition, the zebra stripes on the glider wings were inboard of the wing stars and there would be no stripe paint around the star area.

 

Brian, get your money out. Collection #2 is Wilson's fabric with the subject collection.

Gliderman1

Thanks for the great details and background. This is a facinating area. Is it correct to assume that many of these USAAF airframes only flew one mission? Were the frames or parts typically recycled by the Army, or just salvaged by desperate French farmers? I'm surprised that there aren't more surviving examples of stars and bars, and frames.

RSR

[gliderman1]

RSR, Yes to all, plus the troops also vandalized the fabric and other stuff. A lot of gliders that could have been recovered were not because of the amount of field work required to make them flyable. There also were frame and parts incompatibilities between various manufactureres. All of the CG-4A gliders that have been rebuilt were original frames before restoration began.

 

Getting a piece of fabric back to the states and preserving it all these years is probably the most difficult part of saving it. There also is fabric which is not what the family or veteran says it was/is. One case a lady believes/claims her airborne infantryman father wrote her name on a piece of fabric and attached it to the glider then retrieved the piece after he flew and landed the glider. Actually, he was not a pilot and did not fly the glider. He wrote her name on the inside of the fabric in the cargo section, after landiing he then cut out that peice and brought it home. The entire mistaken story is recorded digitally as part of a veteran's history project. Another fabric piece consisting of the first round window, port side, including the nomenclature stencil (serial number, model, mfg, crew weight) below and left of that window on the cargo section is claimed by the glider infantryman to be from the glider he rode into Normandy. Problem is the USAAF Aircraft ID card for that glider serial number says it was surveyed/written-off in NC, therefore never having left the states -- never in England or Normandy.

[RedStateRanger]

Gliderman1

Can you tell me who built glider CG-4A 43-27453 and when it might have been sent to UK? I understand this glider flew from Ramsbury early on Jun 6th to Normandy.

Thanks,

RSR

[gliderman1]

RSR, 43-27453 was built by Northwestern Aeronautical (NW). Based on NW average deliveries, she was delivered approximately the first part of July 1943. Without the ID card I have no idea when she was shipped from which depot to England. Per 82 A/B reports she flew in serial 28 from Ramsbury carrying a gun and 3 artillerymen plus the 2 pilots. The glider landed 12 miles from the LZ and was destroyed. The 3 men were okay and the gun was serviceable. I have nothing to tie the GPs by name to this glider so I do not know the condition of the two Troop Carrier Glider pilots as they are not delt with in the 82 A/B reports. However, because the glider was destroyed, a good chance the pilots were injured or killed. That is, if it was destroyed on landing. If it was destroyed after landing and unloading, no one was injured.

[RedStateRanger]

Appreciate all the great comments and feedback. The forum and members have been a terrific resource for piecing together more and more details behind this bit of history.

The attached photo is the portion of tow rope that accompanied the cut out canvas star. This was presented by the French family to the pilot during his visit. I believe the proper dia. for the nylon tow rope is 11/16ths. Have not had opportunity to measure this remnant...yet. I originally thought there was a hook or metal ring as well, but there is not.

[RedStateRanger]

Philippe,

 

Are these the bars you are referring to? This is from a glider which participated in operation Varsity. This came directly from Ted Wilson who was with the 681st GFAB.

 

Tail number 340360 Chalk number 138. He landed in Wesel.

That is an amazing piece of history right there. Is that Star with Bars in a private collection? Have never seen an authentic war-glider artifact (with provinence) that good in any museum.

Separately....Does anyone know if any glider remnants (frames or parts) are still wasting away in woods or fields in the States? I understand quite a few gliders were sold off as surplus after the war.

[gfryman]

Thanks for sharing an amazing group.