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Just Wingin' it...


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#26 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 05:32 PM

The hinge.



#27 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 05:34 PM

Shoulder detail.



#28 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 05:35 PM

I love the shield proportion to the wing.



#29 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 05:38 PM

Very thick. I noticed on this wing, that there are no sharp edges like on the Amcraft. It looks very hand finished and buffed...beautiful quality.



#30 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 05:39 PM

Last one for this wing. This is how I am displaying the group. I placed the cardboard piece in the first photo under the wool backing inside the frame (I'm anal like that) ;).



#31 Plant#4

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:30 PM

nice display. I too try to keep all materials that came with a group together, mostly cause I dont want to limit my options. Small vinettes, such as these, will lead you to a larger grouping in the future, for I had a vistitor see one of them and they originally did not think they had enough stuff form me to be interested. When they mentioned that they would like to sell thier small grouping, of course I said yes, and now I own them ( a few pins removed from a Kamakasie pilot's uniform) by thier father. Dave

#32 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:37 PM

nice display. I too try to keep all materials that came with a group together, mostly cause I dont want to limit my options. Small vinettes, such as these, will lead you to a larger grouping in the future, for I had a vistitor see one of them and they originally did not think they had enough stuff form me to be interested. When they mentioned that they would like to sell thier small grouping, of course I said yes, and now I own them ( a few pins removed from a Kamakasie pilot's uniform) by thier father. Dave



Hi,

Thanks very much. I agree with you. Sometimes the little pins and ribbons make all the difference in the world.

#33 Guest_rustywings_*

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 07:08 PM

Terrific images of important pieces of U.S. aviation history! Thank you for your efforts!

#34 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 07:40 PM

Terrific images of important pieces of U.S. aviation history! Thank you for your efforts!



My pleasure to share with you all...thanks ;) .

#35 pfrost

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 03:39 AM

Nice, very nice.

I had a chance to add one of these to the collection many years ago when one showed up at a flea market. But at the time, I thought the 95$ price tag was to high, so I passed...then went back a few hours later and it was gone...argh.

Clearly this was a very popular pattern of wing that was used likely from the 1920's all the way through WWII. This pattern can be seen covering the range from balloon wings to service pilot wings.

Patrick

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 05:17 AM

Nice, very nice.

I had a chance to add one of these to the collection many years ago when one showed up at a flea market. But at the time, I thought the 95$ price tag was to high, so I passed...then went back a few hours later and it was gone...argh.

Clearly this was a very popular pattern of wing that was used likely from the 1920's all the way through WWII. This pattern can be seen covering the range from balloon wings to service pilot wings.

Patrick



Thank you Patrick. :) I didn't realize the design went all the way back to the 1920's http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/w00t.gif . Is there any wat to distinguish a wing from that decade to one of 1930's or 40's production? I would think the hardware would be a good indicator, but I am not sure when the type of setup on my wing was first used.

#37 pfrost

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 06:29 AM

Thank you Patrick. :) I didn't realize the design went all the way back to the 1920's http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/w00t.gif . Is there any wat to distinguish a wing from that decade to one of 1930's or 40's production? I would think the hardware would be a good indicator, but I am not sure when the type of setup on my wing was first used.

Howdy

I don't really know how you would know for sure, to be honest. Other than a dated photo with the wing shown or something from the owner.

I think you have to factor in a couple of things. First, the normal manufacturing run for a company. Likely, once the dies were made, they would only take them out and knock out a production run when they needed to do so. I suspect that LGB was likely only a whole sale/catalog/mail order company, so you could imagine that they only kept a small amount of stock on hand. However, when they got a contract from some retail or uniform supply store for 100 units or so of pilot wings, then they would make them. Thus, a pattern may have been around for decades. Also, it just doesn't seem to have been that much change in the hardware, at least not to point to a specific decade. Second, when something was made, it could have sat on a shelf until it was sold. Clearly, your wings were worn by a WWII pilot and who likely got his wings early in 1940. Otherwise, he likely would have been a senior or command pilot if he had gotten his wings earlier. Also, up until just before the war, the US was only training about 500 pilots a year. So the demand for wings during the inter-war years would have been very low. Thus, a wing may have been made some significant time before it was actually worn. No way to know for sure.

Some wings in this pattern, like the service pilot wings were clearly only made in WWII (I have a photo of a guy wearing them somewhere). On the other hand, this pattern also exists in the balloon ratings, and those were most likely only worn in the 1920s t0 30's before becoming obsolete. Here are a couple, the top likely dates from early 1920 and the bottom from mid 20s to 30's.

Patrick

Attached Images

  • balloons.jpg


#38 pfrost

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 06:32 AM

At the other end of the spectrum, here is a WWII vintage photo of a service pilot wearing the pattern. THe gal on the left is wearing a USN capbadge pinned on the front of her dress!

Attached Images

  • servicepilotgirls.jpg
  • servicewing.jpg

Edited by pfrost, 16 August 2008 - 06:34 AM.


#39 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 01:24 PM

Thanks Patrick for the visuals and in-depth reply. ;) One thing I noticed about my wing compared to the ones you posted (post#27) is that protruding feather that boldly stands out, and that design doesn't repeat itself on the left wing to such a bold extent...only the right. The wings you posted for a reference don't seem to have that characteristic...so is it safe to assume this was from a different die...or possibly a re-worked die??

#40 pfrost

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 02:02 PM

Thanks Patrick for the visuals and in-depth reply. ;) One thing I noticed about my wing compared to the ones you posted (post#27) is that protruding feather that boldly stands out, and that design doesn't repeat itself on the left wing to such a bold extent...only the right. The wings you posted for a reference don't seem to have that characteristic...so is it safe to assume this was from a different die...or possibly a re-worked die??



I am pretty sure this pattern of wing was not only made over about a 20 year period, but in different metals and by different companies and clearly using different dies. I have this pattern hallmarked with AMCRAFT and they see to be made of some sort of light pot metal. The balloon wings in my collection are silver plated brass, and your wings are sterling silver. I kind of believe that LGB produced these wings during WWII, while AMCRAFT produced these patterns pre-war. Also, I expect different wear patterns. But I know of the wings in my collection, a side by side comparison shows that the details are pretty close to the same in all the wings. The main characteristic seems to be that these wings are oversize compared to other wings.

Patrick

#41 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 02:35 PM

I am pretty sure this pattern of wing was not only made over about a 20 year period, but in different metals and by different companies and clearly using different dies. I have this pattern hallmarked with AMCRAFT and they see to be made of some sort of light pot metal. The balloon wings in my collection are silver plated brass, and your wings are sterling silver. I kind of believe that LGB produced these wings during WWII, while AMCRAFT produced these patterns pre-war. Also, I expect different wear patterns. But I know of the wings in my collection, a side by side comparison shows that the details are pretty close to the same in all the wings. The main characteristic seems to be that these wings are oversize compared to other wings.

Patrick



Many thanks again for the info.

#42 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:29 PM

OK...OK, so I have already negated my statement about adding one or two a year... :rolleyes: Here a a very recent acquisition, and I think for the price, a bit of a sleeper on Ebay. It is the "Senior" brother to my Amcraft basic Pilot wing from the 1930's with snowflake pattern. I will post the detailed shots in a few days of the hardware as I did the others. For now, another themed display.



#43 FightenIrish35

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:15 PM

http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#44 John Cooper

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:17 PM

Now that is a nice wing!! You seem to have a very good eye and the ability to find gems!

BTW that last Balfour is a beauty too ;)

John

#45 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:27 PM

Now that is a nice wing!! You seem to have a very good eye and the ability to find gems!

BTW that last Balfour is a beauty too ;)

John



Thanks MPS. ;)

John, I owe a lot of that learned ability to you and Patrick. I really do like the Balfour wing, it just screams quality. The only downside to the Amcraft wings in my opinion is the inadequate clasp arrangement and thin pin - very delicate. The Balfour on the other hand, is very well built, and plenty sturdy.

#46 pfrost

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 07:56 AM

OK...OK, so I have already negated my statement about adding one or two a year... :rolleyes:


Uh...yeah...you weren't fooling anyone with THAT statement, my friend!

Nice wing.
One day at the Great Western Gun show, I managed to work out a number of deals to get the Amcraft marked senior pilot, command pilot wing and observer wing in this pattern.

Because I lacked to funds to do this outright, I had to work the show like an arabian camel trader (sorry if I offend any Arabians or camels). Basically, I ran around the show and bought about 20$ worth of stuff--mostly bits and pieces of insignia (I was a super poor grad student at the time who could only afford about 50$ total to attend the show--7$ to park, and 10$ to get into the Great Western, left me with about 30$ to spend!). Then took those items back to a friend who was a dealer and sold them for about 30$. Took that 30$ and found a couple of other items, and then sold them to another dealer for a small profit, which brought my total up to 50$...and so on. I worked the show like that ALL friggin day until I had enough to buy the wings. At one point I must have had 3 active trades going on where I was buying two things to trade for a third thing that I would then sell for a small profit so that I could buy a fourth item to sell to someone else for a bit more. Maybe I should have become a stock broker!?

#47 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 08:03 AM

Uh...yeah...you weren't fooling anyone with THAT statement, my friend!

Nice wing.
One day at the Great Western Gun show, I managed to work out a number of deals to get the Amcraft marked senior pilot, command pilot wing and observer wing in this pattern.

Because I lacked to funds to do this outright, I had to work the show like an arabian camel trader (sorry if I offend any Arabians or camels). Basically, I ran around the show and bought about 20$ worth of stuff--mostly bits and pieces of insignia (I was a super poor grad student at the time who could only afford about 50$ total to attend the show--7$ to park, and 10$ to get into the Great Western, left me with about 30$ to spend!). Then took those items back to a friend who was a dealer and sold them for about 30$. Took that 30$ and found a couple of other items, and then sold them to another dealer for a small profit, which brought my total up to 50$...and so on. I worked the show like that ALL friggin day until I had enough to buy the wings. At one point I must have had 3 active trades going on where I was buying two things to trade for a third thing that I would then sell for a small profit so that I could buy a fourth item to sell to someone else for a bit more. Maybe I should have become a stock broker!?



Yea, well it sounded good anyway.... :dry:

Geeeeeshhhh, that was a lot of work...but a pretty smart idea AND well worth it in the end too. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#48 pfrost

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 08:20 AM

It was a lot of work, but it allowed me to really get a feel for values and fakes. Many times, I simply couldnt buy a wing even if the story the dealer was telling me was tempting because I had no money. So, I would do a lot of comparison shopping to find the best deal for the money I did have. I would go from one dealer to the other and look at the wings and ask them why this was expensvie vs that one. Then go compare it with another person's stuff and asking them questions. At a show like the Great Western, you could go around and find a well respected dealer with really good stuff and even more dealers with fake stuff and pertty soon you started to notice patterns of fakes and the dealers who sold them versus the good stuff.

I also began to notice that you didnt have to buy something the first time you saw it, that frequently a similar (or better) item would come along a little bit later. So I learned to have patience when collecting--I used to buy 1 or 2 wings a year! :rolleyes: heh

In my mind, I would ask myself a series of questions (I still do BTW). Was the wing die struck and with the proper hardware? Was the wing in good condition? Did the wing look like it had the proper age and patina and wear? Did the dealer have other wings that looked similar or that I thought were fake? How did the wing compare with other wings that I had looked at? And finally, I would ask myself, "If I have to sell this tomorrow, could I at least double my money on it? If the answers were "yes" then I would buy. I believe because of that, I have very few regrets in my collection where I wish I had bought something that I didn't or had not bought something that I did. Ebay is great because it gives you lots of options, but in many ways you cant really do that comparisson shopping like you can at the shows.

Edited by pfrost, 27 August 2008 - 08:20 AM.


#49 IMPERIAL QUEST

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 05:12 PM

Here is an Amcraft family portrait. Two of which have already been featured previously. I thought since I added Papa the Command Pilot, I would show the trio. I won't tell how much I stole the CPW for as it would make John cry. I really like this pattern, but the flimsy hardware and extremely thin underlying brass don't compare to the heft and quality of the LGB I posted here. Still, the overall design is beautiful to my eye. ;)

Say cheese...



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Posted 13 October 2008 - 05:13 PM

Showing their flaky side... :rolleyes:




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