SKIPH Posted May 22, 2015 Share #1 Posted May 22, 2015 Hey Gang! Just stumbled on this beauty. Up for discussion. US M4 Bayonet,w/ M3 blade dated PAL , and WW2 guard. Ebay # 311355268919. This one looks legit to me. First thing I looked at was the pommel. It looks right. Only discrepancies I can rationalize is the pins in the pommel are ground down, and it is a 7 groove handle (have not seen more than 6 before). That makes me suspicious. Handle and pommel make my radar go up. It does look great, but I have some doubts. Someone really knows what they're doing if its been built. But, we need to discuss this one. Check it out! SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 22, 2015 Share #2 Posted May 22, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 22, 2015 Share #3 Posted May 22, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 22, 2015 Share #4 Posted May 22, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 22, 2015 Share #5 Posted May 22, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted May 22, 2015 Share #6 Posted May 22, 2015 I have a couple of thoughts on this, will want to see what others think. For information, I show a closeup of the latchplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted May 22, 2015 Robert-Thanks for posting for me. I'm not good at that. SKIP Gary- Suspect you see what I see. This could become an interesting discussion. Not as legit looking as first appeared. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted May 22, 2015 Share #8 Posted May 22, 2015 The latch plate looks like there are a lot of pressure marks like from a vice grip or something else? maybe the close up of the picture caused this but looks like imprints/pressure to the latch plate to press it onto the knife? I have a PAL M4 and my star burst pattern looks different than this one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted May 22, 2015 mdk0911-Is correct about the sunburst pattern on a PAL M4 pommel. Checked my out too, it's a sunburst, and the pins are not flat. . So we have another discrepancy. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted May 22, 2015 Share #10 Posted May 22, 2015 old blade, newer (in comparison) bayonet... put it together in your basement and it's a "super rare variant". the pommel peen looks very messed-with. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorin6 Posted May 22, 2015 Share #11 Posted May 22, 2015 Is the A in the PAL on the blade correct for an M3? On the M1 bayonets the cross line is actual in a V if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted May 22, 2015 The PAL blade-dated "A" is slightly larger than the "P", or "L". Not sure what you mean by "cross line in a "V". SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted May 22, 2015 Share #13 Posted May 22, 2015 I think he means the crossbar of the A in PAL, is not straight but in a V shape - see photo of their M1 mark. However, I think the PAL mark on the M3 did use a straight bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share #14 Posted May 22, 2015 Gary- Thanks for clarifying. Yes, the "A" in PAL on blade dated M3s has a straight line across the "A". Checked my dated Pal, plus Coniglio, and Cole. Good point brought up by Thorin6. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilian Posted May 22, 2015 Share #15 Posted May 22, 2015 Apart from the peculiar peening and ground off pins, I do not see the usual markings such as for example SP and a number on the latch plate. And should in normal PAL production, apart from the number of grooves, the grip not have a plastic spacer at each end? It might be the picture/lighting, but is also seems to me the blade and crossguard have a different (more rusty/reddish) colour than the pommel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted May 23, 2015 Share #16 Posted May 23, 2015 When I saw this yesterday, my jaw dropped. When I looked at the pommel, I knew something was up. If it had been constructed by, say the Japanese post war, it would not have the faked star burst. The handle was certainly replaced. Then I noticed the number of grooves. Too bad, my hopes were dashed. Thanks for pointing out all the other things I didn't notice. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share #17 Posted May 23, 2015 Everyone is catching something. Too bad it wasn't real, what a prize it would be. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted May 23, 2015 Share #18 Posted May 23, 2015 Let me start by saying that I do not know what this bayonet is for certain, except that it does not have all the correct characteristics of the regular M4 PAL bayonet. But I do have something to suggest - the following is abstracted from a writeup by Frank Trzaska in his Knife Knotes column at http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/ "During the Korean War it was anticipated that stocks of the M4 would soon be depleted. As large numbers of M3 knives were still on hand, it was thought that M3s could be readily converted to the M4. Camillus was given a small contract to convert M3s to M4s to determine the feasibility of such a conversion. It was found that the cost of converting the knives to bayonets actually was about the same as buying new bayonets due to the cost of the labor involved, and Camillus was given a contract to make new M4s. Realizing that the cost of labor in Japan was much lower, the Ordnance Corps contracted for the conversion of about 58,000 M3 knives to M4 bayonets in Japan. The process was began about April 1953 and ended in January 1954. It is likely that this accounts for most of the M4 bayonets with M3 blade marks." If the bayonet under discussion is "real" it is possible that it is part of those 58,000 conversions. However, I am not certain that marked M4 guards were used during this conversion, although it is possible that guards were salvaged from M4 bayonets which had the leather grips go bad as many are reported to have done in the Pacific theater. I have to admit that I have not seen any great number of BLANK M4 guards if such were used in the official conversions. Experiments had been done in the 1944-45 period with making latch plates from powdered metal by Isthmian Metals Inc. of Boston with good results, so again it is possible that powder metal latch plates were procured by Ordnance for use in these conversions. I am certainly not saying that this bayonet is one of these conversions as I have never seen one that I could be sure came from this batch. All I can say is that I am very suspicious that the bayonet is NOT an early PAL M4 using up an old blade - most of the double marked ones that I have seen used undated blades. Just too many questions in my mind. If it went cheap enough (and it won't I am sure) I would not mind having it as a curiosity piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted May 23, 2015 Share #19 Posted May 23, 2015 Not sure what it is either. Others more knowledgeable than me have commented on the finer points, but my first reaction when I saw it before looking at the sum of the other parts was that it has been rehandled. It has that typical reddish tint or dye that just doesn't look right to me. Maybe it is too smooth or something but when I see them something just doesn't give me a good feeling. While I've learned a few more good points from Gary again in the thread, this bayo just doesn't add up IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted May 23, 2015 Saw a Utica M4 this morning on ebay with what appears to be a new handle, with only 5 grooves. Ebay # 111677823626. It's all wrong! SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 23, 2015 Share #21 Posted May 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 23, 2015 Share #22 Posted May 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted May 23, 2015 Share #23 Posted May 23, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share #24 Posted May 23, 2015 Robert- Thanks for posting! SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share #25 Posted May 31, 2015 Blade dated PAL M4 sitting at $434 w/ about 2 hours to go. Could get interesting! Wonder how many more blade dated M4s will start appearing. We'll see! SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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