Unusually "hardcore" US officer account of Dauchau

[MAW]

Unusual "as it really was" account in the The Daily Mail....including description of US soldiers killing SS prison guards.

 

Definitely worth reading.

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3088025/How-American-doctor-witnessed-Dachau-s-SS-guards-tortured-shot-dead-GIs-cold-blood-coming.html

 

[R Michael]

Interesting article. Thanks for the link. I thought it a bit telling some of the verbage used by the author of the article.

 

Mike

[12A54]

“Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker, the Seventh Army's Assistant Inspector General, was subsequently ordered to investigate after witnesses came forward testifying about the killings. He issued a report on 8 June 1945, called the "Investigation of Alleged Mistreatment of German Guards at Dachau" and also known as "the I.G. Report".”

“The investigation resulted in the U.S. Military considering courts-martial against those involved, including the Battalion commander Lt. Col. Felix Sparks, while Col. Howard Buechner was cited in the report for dereliction of duty for not giving the wounded SS men in the coal yard medical aid. However, General George S. Patton, the recently appointed military governor of Bavaria, chose to dismiss the charges.”

"Colonel Charles L. Decker, an acting deputy judge advocate, concluded in late 1945 that while there had probably been a violation of international law, "in the light of the conditions which greeted the eyes of the first combat troops, it is not believed that justice or equity demand that the difficult and perhaps impossible task of fixing individual responsibility now be undertaken.""

[ajbUSWM]

This article is a trend by some to demonize the US during WWII. I have posted about this previously on here. Simultaneously those same writers whitewash Soviet atrocities that dwarf all others in number and brutality.

 

By the way, the "looting" this author mentions was not against regulations. Complete nonsense. Then it mentions "torture" because they were forced to stand for hours?

 

The most telling line is "Historians have described the massacre of dozens of SS guards at the hands of American GIs as arguably the most shameful episode in American involvement in WWII." What historians? I've never heard that bogus claim. Summary executions were carried out throughout WWII by all countries for a wide range of offenses. This is no different.

 

The most shameful American act of WWII was allowing the Soviets to take Germany and attack millions of children followed by Operation Keelhaul and the murder of countless returning Ukrainians to Soviet control. This author will never write of those atrocities.

 

Again, I am troubled by the trend by some to demonize our greatest generation.

 

By the way, in speaking with many over the decades who experienced the war, it was known throughout the world that if you had to surrender, surrernder to the Yankees because you would be treated fairly and with humanly. That statement was made by every single refugee I spoke with - no exceptions. For some reason the author omits that fact.

 

God bless the men and women who have served and currently serve.

[ajbUSWM]

 

“Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker, the Seventh Army's Assistant Inspector General, was subsequently ordered to investigate after witnesses came forward testifying about the killings. He issued a report on 8 June 1945, called the "Investigation of Alleged Mistreatment of German Guards at Dachau" and also known as "the I.G. Report".”

“The investigation resulted in the U.S. Military considering courts-martial against those involved, including the Battalion commander Lt. Col. Felix Sparks, while Col. Howard Buechner was cited in the report for dereliction of duty for not giving the wounded SS men in the coal yard medical aid. However, General George S. Patton, the recently appointed military governor of Bavaria, chose to dismiss the charges.”

"Colonel Charles L. Decker, an acting deputy judge advocate, concluded in late 1945 that while there had probably been a violation of international law, "in the light of the conditions which greeted the eyes of the first combat troops, it is not believed that justice or equity demand that the difficult and perhaps impossible task of fixing individual responsibility now be undertaken.""

 

 

Then fine. Courts-martial were applied. Fine.

 

[ViewfinderGyrene]

I too have noticed this "trend" and I'm getting damn sick of it. The way this article is worded is a joke. In the near future, all articles of this type will be written when the men who liberated the camps or saw the horrors cannot speak up. I don't blame this man a single bit, if I had seen the dead piled high, I wouldn't have been a bit sad that the SS got theirs. So many ETO vets involved in the mop-up of Germany whom I've met said something similar to

 

"The Regular Army was overextended and sick of fighting, but if we saw SS, we knew and had seen the product of their fanaticism, and 'acted accordingly'.

 

'nuff said...

[ajbUSWM]

I too have noticed this "trend" and I'm getting damn sick of it. The way this article is worded is a joke. In the near future, all articles of this type will be written when the men who liberated the camps or saw the horrors cannot speak up. I don't blame this man a single bit, if I had seen the dead piled high, I wouldn't have been a bit sad that the SS got theirs. So many ETO vets involved in the mop-up of Germany whom I've met said something similar to

 

"The Regular Army was overextended and sick of fighting, but if we saw SS, we knew and had seen the product of their fanaticism, and 'acted accordingly'.

 

'nuff said...

 

There is a veteran's movement that produced a video or ad called "I didn't fight for this." I can only assume that articles like these contributed to their response.

[Garandomatic]

Kind of hard to keep the boys down on the farm after word of Malmedy got out earlier in the year. Might not have been the same SS, but they had the same two letters on their collar.

[strawberry 9]

This incident is covered in the autobiography of Felix Sparks also. Evidently the author of this article chooses to gloss over why some of the guards were shot by U.S. soldiers. This was their first encounter of an extermination camp. They were reacting to what they saw and it was to much for even battle hardened veterans. I won't go to far into my opinion of articles like this because it will quickly become political, but needless to say, it's drivel written by an uniformed, inexperienced, egotistical moron from the comfort of his desk and the safety of a country kept free by the soldiers he now condemns.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

I won't go to far into my opinion of articles like this because it will quickly become political, but needless to say, it's drivel written by an uniformed, inexperienced, egotistical moron from the comfort of his desk and the safety of a country kept free by the soldiers he now condemns.

 

You just said perfectly what I wish I could say on-the-spot about so many things regarding history and our military lol...

 

Freedom isn't a party or POV issue, it's a universal issue. When people publish stuff like this, "relaxing behind the desk taking said freedom for granted" immediately comes to mind...thank you.

[ajbUSWM]

...it's drivel written by an uniformed, inexperienced, egotistical moron from the comfort of his desk and the safety of a country kept free by the soldiers he now condemns.

 

Well said. And that hold true for all the other anti-American soldier articles I have read over the past five years. Same people .. same evil agenda..

 

God bless the men and women in uniform who have keep our country free of tyranny for over 239 years.

[MAW]

This article is a trend by some to demonize the US during WWII. I have posted about this previously on here. Simultaneously those same writers whitewash Soviet atrocities that dwarf all others in number and brutality.

 

By the way, the "looting" this author mentions was not against regulations. Complete nonsense. Then it mentions "torture" because they were forced to stand for hours?

 

The most telling line is "Historians have described the massacre of dozens of SS guards at the hands of American GIs as arguably the most shameful episode in American involvement in WWII." What historians? I've never heard that bogus claim. Summary executions were carried out throughout WWII by all countries for a wide range of offenses. This is no different.

 

The most shameful American act of WWII was allowing the Soviets to take Germany and attack millions of children followed by Operation Keelhaul and the murder of countless returning Ukrainians to Soviet control. This author will never write of those atrocities.

 

Again, I am troubled by the trend by some to demonize our greatest generation.

 

By the way, in speaking with many over the decades who experienced the war, it was known throughout the world that if you had to surrender, surrernder to the Yankees because you would be treated fairly and with humanly. That statement was made by every single refugee I spoke with - no exceptions. For some reason the author omits that fact.

 

God bless the men and women who have served and currently serve.

 

I agree with the gist of what you say, and that we should be wary of revisionist history....

 

but I didn't take this article quite so literally as you did.

 

I believe many people in the general public have a sanitized notion of WW2 and earlier wars, because they pre-date the 24 hour news cycle and the internet.

 

It doesn't surprise me too much that some SS punks would be terminated with prejudice under the circumstances. War is brutal, and it really, really sucks to lose.

 

The "looting" referred to....i interpreted as an average journalist with limited knowledge of military history trying to describe some souvenirs. Just a literal "lack of knowledge".

 

All I know is I'd like to have this guy's uniform group in my collection.

 

[David D]

I agree. Bad things happen in war. But I think the "torture" part was a bit over exaggerated. But besides that, great article that shows the brutality of war.

 

Dave

[38Driver]

It isn't like this is a new revelation as its been reported in any number of books over the years.

 

Could be the "demonizing" some of your are talking about is a good counterpoint to the glorifying of the "Greatest Generation", which in my Mind is the greatest disservice done to those who fought WW2. They were no better or worse than any other generation. They fought a bloody, merciless war where people of all sides did things that were horrible. Combat had very few saints as there wasn't room for it when staying alive was what mattered.

 

To make them bigger than life minimizes what they endured. Yep American soldiers killed prisoners, often. Find me a war where it never happened. You don't make men killers and not expect in the horror of combat they won't cross lines drawn by someone far from the experience.

 

But please don't make this about historians changing the narrative. What a load of crap. If anything needs to change is the current crowd needing to remember how terrible that war was. Just watch the forum here and note how few seem to remember the people who wore this stuff and thier sacrifice. Compare it to those looking to profit off it and those all excited when the "score!" thier latest KIA medal or uniform without any thought to the real price paid by the guy who never came home.

 

So yeah, let's demonize that war and what it did to the combat guys and remember all the horrible things they had to do in there terrible job. Let's quit pretending there was anything great or glorious about it.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

Our point of aggitation [at least speaking for myself] is not the demonization.

 

What I take issue with is the attitude that seemingly acts like the SS did not have it coming. Talk about a load of crap...

[38Driver]

And where did you see that attitude? If you are claiming the Daily Mail as representative of historians then we need to redefine historians. I just finished Atkinsons trilogy and he documents these events. It wasn't the first time I'd read of it. I seem to recall mention in Ryan's "The Last Battle".

 

Read Paul Fussels works on WW2 including his biography describing his own experience as a combat wounded infantry officer. He describes vividly the massacre of Prisoners by his own men. Read any of Don Burgett's books and see how often he talks about POWs being shot.

 

The reality is what it is. Setting an expectation of civilized men going into combat is a reasonable thing. Expecting it to be followed under all circumstances isn't.

 

Denying these things happened would be terrible.

[ViewfinderGyrene]

Absolutely true, denying them would be complete ignorance. Again, I'm disappointed in the words used, not the actions themselves. I'll be the first one to say these guys weren't perfect, I've read plenty.

 

I'm [and others here] are merely amazed and saddened that a writier from a nation that was our closest ally would word the portions regarding the SS the way they did. OF course they're not historians, but they have a huge audience. The sympathy for the SS is the root of our discontent.

 

I don't even know where [or why] the debate of the US generation being somehow "perfect" even came up...various nations have voiced negative opinions on our armed forces since the War and further back, I sincerely don't care about said opinions. We're all biased in some way...

[38Driver]

Imagine the Daily Mail being the New York Post or a tamer version of the National Inquirer. Stirring things up and over sensationalizing is what they do

 

Definitely not historians

[ViewfinderGyrene]

Imagine the Daily Mail being the New York Post or a tamer version of the National Inquirer. Stirring things up and over sensationalizing is what they do

 

Definitely not historians

 

Dammit, now I'll have nightmares, lol!

[1SG_1st_Cav]

My dad was a medic in WWII, and he helped liberate a POW Camp that also had Jewish prisoners.

He carried those images with him till he died. On my first tour in Germany, I visited Dachau in October

1965. It was cold, wet, and dreary. Thru main gate there is a huge bronze wall cast to look like barbed wire with

images of Jewish prisoners who where gaunt and looked like ghosts. There were hundred of bundles of flowers that were left by Jewish visitors. I could feel the weight of a million poor souls on my shoulders. I will never forget that feeing!

 

I was not there, so I cannot comment on what happened to the SS Guards when the US soldiers liberated that camp.

 

I guess you have to walk a mile in some ones shoes to know what they saw, and what their reactions were.

 

Judge not, lest ye be judged! Dan

[ajbUSWM]

I think the goal of this author and others that demonize our war heroes is the old "they did it too" trick. As they can soften Stalin's atrocities and exaggerate America's misgivings, then they can argue that maybe that form of government isn't so bad after all.

 

To show how effective they have been, 7,000 children were asked to rate famous people and they see Stalin better than some of America's past presidents. So from his grave Stalin, one of the most evil people in world history, is declaring "checkmate! It is working."

[cutiger83]

This article is a trend by some to demonize the US during WWII.

 

I don’t see this article as trying to demonize the US but rather trying to describe the mindset of the troops who liberated Dachau. The author even went on to discuss how much it affected the doctor after the war.

 

“They cast new light on the actions of US soldiers who were confronted with the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps and offer some insight into how battle-weary troops reacted as the full extent of the atrocities committed in Dachau - and other similar places - were revealed to them.”

 

“He wrote: 'When all other names are forgotten, Dachau will still be remembered.'”

 

 

By the way, the "looting" this author mentions was not against regulations. Complete nonsense.

 

I don’t see anything where he is saying the looting was against regulations. How is it complete nonsense when he talks about looting that happened; Looting happened in every phase of the war. Just look at the “spoils of war” section on here.

 

 

 

Then it mentions "torture" because they were forced to stand for hours?

 

 

Umm…So you are saying being forced to “stand for hours in Heil Hitler salutes and pouring iced water over their naked backs before they were shot dead.” Is not torture? You conveniently left off the rest of the sentence to try to prove your point.

 

By the way, in speaking with many over the decades who experienced the war, it was known throughout the world that if you had to surrender, surrender to the Yankees because you would be treated fairly and with humanly. That statement was made by every single refugee I spoke with - no exceptions. For some reason the author omits that fact.

 

 

 

 

This article was about Dachau and not about surrendering as prisoners. It is not that he omitted the fact but that it was not relevant to this story.

 

I find it interesting that rather than admit that all American soldiers are not perfect, you keep pointing to other countries or twisting articles around to fit your agenda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cutiger83]

It isn't like this is a new revelation as its been reported in any number of books over the years.

 

Could be the "demonizing" some of your are talking about is a good counterpoint to the glorifying of the "Greatest Generation", which in my Mind is the greatest disservice done to those who fought WW2. They were no better or worse than any other generation. They fought a bloody, merciless war where people of all sides did things that were horrible. Combat had very few saints as there wasn't room for it when staying alive was what mattered.

 

To make them bigger than life minimizes what they endured. Yep American soldiers killed prisoners, often. Find me a war where it never happened. You don't make men killers and not expect in the horror of combat they won't cross lines drawn by someone far from the experience.

 

But please don't make this about historians changing the narrative. What a load of crap. If anything needs to change is the current crowd needing to remember how terrible that war was. Just watch the forum here and note how few seem to remember the people who wore this stuff and thier sacrifice. Compare it to those looking to profit off it and those all excited when the "score!" thier latest KIA medal or uniform without any thought to the real price paid by the guy who never came home.

 

So yeah, let's demonize that war and what it did to the combat guys and remember all the horrible things they had to do in there terrible job. Let's quit pretending there was anything great or glorious about it.

 

I agree....Well stated....

 

 

[cutiger83]

What I take issue with is the attitude that seemingly acts like the SS did not have it coming. Talk about a load of crap...

 

 

Again, I'm disappointed in the words used, not the actions themselves. I'll be the first one to say these guys weren't perfect, I've read plenty.

 

The sympathy for the SS is the root of our discontent.

 

.

 

What words are you talking about? I saw no sympathy for the SS in the article. Where do you think he said the SS did not have it coming? I see no sentences to back up your argument.

[cutiger83]

I think the goal of this author and others that demonize our war heroes is the old "they did it too" trick. As they can soften Stalin's atrocities and exaggerate America's misgivings, then they can argue that maybe that form of government isn't so bad after all.

 

To show how effective they have been, 7,000 children were asked to rate famous people and they see Stalin better than some of America's past presidents. So from his grave Stalin, one of the most evil people in world history, is declaring "checkmate! It is working."

 

Exactly WHERE in the article is Stalin even mentioned? How is this article even remotely trying to soften Stalin's atrocities? You are doing the EXACT same thing that you say the author is doing. Instead of admitting that all of the American troops were not perfect, you keep bringing up Russia and Stalin.

 

And where is this article about the 7,000 children? I can find nothing on the internet about this rating of famous people that you are describing.