Jump to content


Photo

HOW TO SPOT ANGUS AND COOTE TRUE WINGS


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

#26 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:24 PM

Looking at the Glider Pilot illustrated on page 137 of More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens, there's no doubt the base wing is authentic, but I wonder why Angus & Coote would rivet this two-piece badge, but not their two-piece Navigator or Aircrew badges which are simply soldered together?  

 

Here's two more A&C badges for your review.  Good or bad?

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_6665.JPG

Edited by rustywings, 19 April 2015 - 03:26 PM.


#27 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:27 PM

Reverse:

 

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_6666.JPG


#28 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:28 PM

Close up...

 

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_6667.JPG


#29 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,089 posts

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:29 PM

Aslo, at least on mine, the profile of the wing is much more rounded than the fakes.  The fakes have this "coffin" or box edge (see post #3) whilst the real ones have a much more rounded and smooth profile.  Maybe that is from wear and tear, but I doubt it.

 

I only have this A&C pilot wing that I can directly compare.  I think it would be worthy of seeing some other wings (mabye from Russ?) to see how universal these differences are.

 

When I look at these wings (and I try to handle as many of the conterfitst that I can), you kind of get the "gstalt" that the conterfits are too symetrical, unworn, and sharp (in detail and in the actual physical edges) of the wing. 

 

P

 

 

Attached Images

  • fornt side.jpg
  • other front side.jpg


#30 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,089 posts

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:34 PM

Ruus,

 

The question of the Silver Wings wing is a good one (and one that I had actually considered). The question being WHEN was the addition made. But that is always the issue with "add ons" isn't it?  An equally valid question could be whether or not the soldered on wings were the ones that were done later?  No way to know, other than to handle and decide on your best experience.  Unless you are lucky and have a biographical wing that the original owner can verify. 

 

P



#31 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,089 posts

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:37 PM

There are actually more than a few "tells" aren't there!  I had only typically relied on one, but now I see multple areas that work.

 

Also, it was my hope that one day, I would find a sleeper on ebay that all the other collectors were going to avoid because the "fakes are just too darn good".  Kind of like that A&C command pilot wing.....  But since you all know the way to tell the differences, I fear the prices will start to inch up again.  heheh...



#32 mtnman

mtnman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 76,516
  • 746 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Low Country" of SE

Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:38 PM


RUSTYWINGS WROTE:

"Looking at the Glider Pilot illustrated on page 137 of More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens, there's no doubt the base wing is authentic, but I wonder why Angus & Coote would rivet this two-piece badge, but not their two-piece Navigator or Aircrew badges which are simply soldered together?"


My Reply:

Great point Russ and thus we may have the original reason in MSWPG's Riveted Shield Glider Badge (if it is a counterfeit), that the counterfeits followed that pattern of riveted shield, with the squared off Geometrically "perfect" wings. I still think the shield on the A&C Glider badge in MSWPG looks very similar to the english shield too.

Edited by mtnman, 19 April 2015 - 03:40 PM.


#33 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:15 AM

The only genuine A&C letter wing I have (Service Pilot) and the few I have handy pics of are NOT riveted. I don't have MSWPG available for reference at the moment, so I can't check that wing.

 

Russ, the Observer based wings you posted I think are both fine originals.

 

Re original Pilot based wings, no-one has highlighted the 2 obvious tells on the reverse, nor the fact that original wings have a plated finish.

 

Regards

Mike



#34 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:56 AM

Russ,

 

The question of the Silver Wings wing is a good one (and one that I had actually considered). The question being WHEN was the addition made. But that is always the issue with "add ons" isn't it?  An equally valid question could be whether or not the soldered on wings were the ones that were done later?  No way to know, other than to handle and decide on your best experience.  Unless you are lucky and have a biographical wing that the original owner can verify. 

 

P

 

Patrick, I absolutely agree with you. I suspect the Glider Pilot badge illustrated in the MSWPG book may have been a wartime private purchase through a jeweler who riveted the glider shield to a period A&C Pilot wing. I have an American made Pilot wing with the identical glider shield applied with a single rivet. So, the glider shield alteration may have occurred in Australia or America? Regardless of where, or who altered the badge, as long as it's a period piece, I believe it's very collectible.  

 

I wonder if the person producing these reproductions saw the illustration in the MSWPG book and decided to add rivets to all of his fake Glider, Liaison and Service Pilot wings? Just wide speculation on my part...



#35 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:14 AM

The only genuine A&C letter wing I have (Service Pilot) and the few I have handy pics of are NOT riveted. I don't have MSWPG available for reference at the moment, so I can't check that wing.

 

Russ, the Observer based wings you posted I think are both fine originals.

 

Re original Pilot based wings, no-one has highlighted the 2 obvious tells on the reverse, nor the fact that original wings have a plated finish.

 

Regards

Mike

 

Hello Mike,

 

It's good to have your involvement in this topic. Excellent point on your part regarding the silver plating! If there's a chance to see an image or two of your authentic A&C Service Pilot badge, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm curious to see if the style of the shield and the font of the letter is similar to the fakes? 

 

 

 

 



#36 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:54 AM

Hi Russ,

 

A couple of scans I have on hand of my Service Pilot to follow. Also a clear comparison between the genuine "S" shield and the repro. Also attached will be the only small pic I have on hand of a genuine A&C Glider Pilot Wing (obverse only - not my pic).

 

Regards

Mike

Attached Images

  • A&C-ServicePilot-obv-x400a.jpg


#37 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:55 AM

Reverse

Attached Images

  • A&C-ServicePilot-rev-x400a.jpg


#38 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:57 AM

"S" shield comparison - note similar font but incorrect number and style of lines - the fake lines are again dead straight.

 

Glider Pilot Wing obverse

Attached Images

  • A&C-ServicePilot-Sbox-Comparison1.jpg
  • $(KGrHqYOKosE6e)f2NK-BOo1ubPP9g~~60_12.jpg


#39 mtnman

mtnman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 76,516
  • 746 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Low Country" of SE

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:02 AM

Looks like a KG Luke Glider Pilot Wing to me.....Beautiful and RARE....Thx Mike

Edited by mtnman, 21 April 2015 - 10:05 AM.


#40 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:53 AM

Looks like a KG Luke Glider Pilot Wing to me.....Beautiful and RARE....Thx Mike

 

Yes, you're right. Not riveted though!

 

Sorry for confusing the thread.

 

Regards

Mike



#41 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,089 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:15 PM

 

Patrick, I absolutely agree with you. I suspect the Glider Pilot badge illustrated in the MSWPG book may have been a wartime private purchase through a jeweler who riveted the glider shield to a period A&C Pilot wing. I have an American made Pilot wing with the identical glider shield applied with a single rivet. So, the glider shield alteration may have occurred in Australia or America? Regardless of where, or who altered the badge, as long as it's a period piece, I believe it's very collectible.  

 

I wonder if the person producing these reproductions saw the illustration in the MSWPG book and decided to add rivets to all of his fake Glider, Liaison and Service Pilot wings? Just wide speculation on my part...

 

It is my understanding that the MSWPG book was published in 1997, almost 18 years ago.  I believe that the reproduction A&C wings only started showing up around 2008-2009.  Even pushing it back to 2007, there is still a goodly and significant time period (>10 years) between when the book was published and the fake conterfit wings (including the rivited alphabet wings) started hitting the market.

 

Of course, the wing in the book could represent a fake made sometime post 1945 using a good A&C pilot wing and a fake "G" shield.  Or it is equally as possible that the wing in the book represents a vintage war time piece.  I think there is no way to know for sure, (especially if you can't handle it in person) but I think there are some facts that can be gleaned.  First (as raised in a few posts above) it is more than likely that at least the glider wing was made by A&C and that these wings were present years before the fakes started showing up en masse.  Second, it seems that at least some vintage A&C wing ratings were 2-piecers that had the rating soldered on a base wing.  The question is whether or not a riviting process was also used, and if some vintage A&C wings had the ratings put on them in that matter?  Riviting of the rating to a base wing isn't that uncommon in WWII vintage wings, as LGB and a number of the English-made wings (ie Fermin) used that process.  If I had to guess, I would think that if these wings were in fact made, they would have been made in very small batches (perhaps by a single individual) and so there may have been some variations, including straight soldering as well as riviting.



#42 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 9,985 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Land of Endless Summer

Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:47 PM

 

Re original Pilot based wings, no-one has highlighted the 2 obvious tells on the reverse, nor the fact that original wings have a plated finish.

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

I know of the "tells" that you are speaking of.They were discussed in another thread here on the Forum but darned if I can find the thread now,so I took an image that was posted earlier and highlighted the areas of interest.

 

I want to give credit where it is due.The image that I used was posted by bschwartz in post #2 of this thread:

 

http://www.usmilitar...hl=+angus +wing

Attached Images

  • TELLS.jpg


#43 Patchcollector

Patchcollector
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,386
  • 9,985 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Land of Endless Summer

Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:48 PM

Something else I wanted to add here is the weight factor.I'm including a photo of my "good" A&C Wing showing it's weight for reference.

Attached Images

  • $_57-9.JPG


#44 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:07 PM

Hi Russ,

 

A couple of scans I have on hand of my Service Pilot to follow. Also a clear comparison between the genuine "S" shield and the repro. Also attached will be the only small pic I have on hand of a genuine A&C Glider Pilot Wing (obverse only - not my pic).

 

Regards

Mike

 

Thank you Mike. Excellent comparison shots! It's good to know there are authentic A&C Service Pilot badges out there! 
 



#45 B-17Guy

B-17Guy
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,439
  • 1,136 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Commonwealth of Virginia

Posted 24 April 2015 - 05:12 AM

Mel, thanks so much for taking the time and effort to post your

extensive research on A&C wing badges.

 

Excellent thread, really adds to the A&C pinned thread with much greater detail and depth.

 

Best, John

 



#46 mtnman

mtnman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 76,516
  • 746 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Low Country" of SE

Posted 24 April 2015 - 05:45 AM

I've never seen an authentic Angus & Coote hallmarked Aerial Gunner or Bombardier badge either.  Are they out there?


Here you go my friend!!
(Compliments of FLYING TIGERS ANTIQUES)

Attached Images

  • bmbwnganguscootewwiiobv.jpg


#47 mtnman

mtnman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 76,516
  • 746 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Low Country" of SE

Posted 24 April 2015 - 05:46 AM

rear.....

Attached Images

  • bmbwnganguscootewwiirev.jpg


#48 mtnman

mtnman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 76,516
  • 746 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Low Country" of SE

Posted 24 April 2015 - 08:40 AM

Please note in the bombardier wing picture above of the obverse. The mirrorlike sheen you see accentuated primarily on the wings themselves, is the silver wash given these wings at manufacture. Most of these wings are going to have all or a portion of the silver wash rubbed off from time in service in the skies of war. These bombardier wings in particular are a great example to get an excellent view of just what the silver wash looks like. If you want to see what it looks like when large portions have been rubbed off, look at the wing from Bob Schwartz' page and his collection, which was the first FULLY AUTHENTIC wing I posted as an example on page 1 of this post. Enjoy gentleman... and I want to add, that I pray this nation is rescued from the annihilation it faces from within, and set to a condition deserving the efforts and lives of the men of today who are ready to lay down the greatest sacrifice for their Families.

#49 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,010 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 April 2015 - 08:34 PM

Here you go my friend!!
(Compliments of FLYING TIGERS ANTIQUES)

 

MtnMan,

 

Thank you for posting images of that very scarce A&C hallmarked Bombardier badge. Your terrific thread has opened my eyes to several badges I did not know existed!

 

Russ    



#50 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 27 April 2015 - 08:24 AM

Another Navigator attached.

 

I don't have an A&C Air Gunner and don't recall seeing one but I'd be surprised if they do not exist.

 

Regards

Mike

Attached Images

  • A&C-Nav-x400a.jpg



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users