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HOW TO SPOT ANGUS AND COOTE TRUE WINGS


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#1 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:02 AM

Ok Gentleman Collectors, I am going to point TWO of the details which CANNOT BE REPLICATED by the thieves who intend economic violence upon the community of collectors and will give opportunity for those who own Angus and Coote wings to confirm their authenticity I am not going to reveal all aspects of a good Angus and Coote wing, you will do this naturally after you get an idea of what to look for.

Angus and Coote was one of the most creative wing makers of World War II, whose design combines the sharp angles and lines of which are indicative of strength and combines this with the gentle curvatures of the fletching within the boundaries of those strong lines. The lines run along the top edge of the wings rising to 2 bold and protruding rounded vertices which immediately create a slightly acute angle as the lower arm of the angle heads down and away from the shield and then another curvature on each side away from the acute heading of the arm and in directly toward the shield with a pronounced curve which creates a very handsome vision of strength, especially with the 2 rounded, muscular shoulders which make up the apex of the rise from the wingtips.

The shield on the Angus and Coote wing is excellent in design and a beauty to look at in the way it conforms in aesthetic symmetry with the wings design. The base the shield has a pronounced "V" shape to it, with the pallets, convex upon the pale, conforming in length to the V pattern of the base of the shield and the base of the chief. Within the chief are MANY FESS (horizontal lines), which we will discuss. The rear of the wing gives an opposite concave and convex pattern to the front and in the top of the shield or escutcheon, in the rear of the chief, is the Maker's Mark with many a fess framing and surrounding the Maker's Mark. The pin clasp is an almost perfect "?" Without the ".". The pin itself is bent in a V-shaped touching the back of the wing and running under the hinge rising vertically and then at a right angle over to the clasp.

Now let's get to some pictures that will get you started in identifying the fakes. Bob Schwartz has created and maintained one a quite comprehensive library of many of the wings which collectors have found joy in seeking for almost a century. Without his concerted and diligent efforts, there would be much more ignorance as to the breadth of wings out there to collect from the beginning of aviation through World War II's end. Thank you Bob for taking the responsibility upon yourself to educate so many and to give a venue for those who have worked so hard and given up much to take stewardship over these tiny monuments to history. I will be using Bob's Angus and Coote pilot wing because the images give me ability to clarify the 2 points at which I want to start everyone seeing the truth behind the authentic Angus and Coote wing.

ANGUS AND COOTE WING CONFIRMATION POINT #1 - The wings created by Angus and Coote can be authenticated by looking into a very close up picture of the chief of the shield. On the counterfeit wings you will see perfect lines horizontally crossing the chief. On the actual Angus and Coote wing, you will see lines that are not perfect at all but run horizontally at angles and even have the line split and ends crossing ends. This is the wonderful and most excellent aspect of having a handmade mold by which the wings were die stamped, there are going to be human errors especially when you have a war going on and expedience is the most important variable. Artisans are going to do their best but there are going to be slight variations from what a computer would otherwise blankly and blandly and without any humanity, fill-in as a linear equation creating a straight line every time without any variation, to create the mold through a computer-driven metal chasing machine. I have circled the chief below so take a good look at the lines within the chief and if you memorize these perfectly imperfect patterns, you won't have any problem identifying of good Angus and Coote wing.

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  • Angus_CooteAAFPilotfrtlgweb.jpg


#2 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:15 AM

ANGUS AND COOTE WING CONFIRMATION POINT #2 - The reverse of the chief of the shield has the Maker's Mark on it. The Maker's Mark on the counterfeit wings is linear and perfectly typeset with perfect horizontal lines passing through and behind the lettering. The "&" on the counterfeit wings is vertically set to perfection. I have chosen the "&" as one aspect of the authentic wing's Maker's Mark which stands out from the counterfeits. The "&" on the TRUE Angus and Coote wings is tilted toward the Dexter wing or the wing on the right-hand side from the wing's perspective facing forward. Now, with this tip you will be able to discern other aspects of the Maker's Mark I will leave to you. That's as far as I want to go in revealing aspects of the authentic Angus and Coote wing design. As you look at the wing you will see other aspects when you compare them to the counterfeit wing I will show below in the post after this one.

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  • Angus_CooteAAFPilotbcklgweb.jpg


#3 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:20 AM

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE PILOT WING....

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  • angus-cootePft1web.jpg


#4 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:21 AM

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE PILOT WING

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  • pilotbk1web.jpg


#5 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:23 AM

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE WING

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  • pilot.JPG


#6 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:24 AM

COUNTERFEIT ANGUS AND COOTE PILOT WING

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  • pilotbk.jpg


#7 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:36 AM

Gentlemen, remember, the same die was used to create the pilot, senior pilot, glider pilot, liaison pilot and the command pilot wing so when there is a glider and liaison pilot wings where there is a letter shield riveted on top of the foundation shield, you can use the Maker's Mark as one of the deciding factors. Remember there are more tells of authentic wings from Angus and Coote, so study the real wing from Bob Schwartz' collection as well as other known good wings and it will come clear to you that by no means are the counterfeit wings, in any instance, dead on in any way shape or form with the true Angus and Coote wing. Blessings in your collecting as always gentlemen and remember, there is only ONE reason that we are Blessed in any aspect of our life in this world where relationships reveal the true mettle of a man, and that is to BE a Blessing.

Edited by mtnman, 17 April 2015 - 07:39 AM.


#8 wingman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:30 AM

Thank you for your excellent analysis of this troublesome problem -- a virtually unmanageable one for new and less experienced collectors.

 

I don't know if you are planning to do this or not, but the alternate logo (round) found on the Bombardier, Navigator, Crew Member and Flight Surgeon wings presents its own special problems. 

 

Bravo!



#9 BEAST

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:35 AM

MTnman, Thanks for the tutorial.  Are there similar "tells" for an aircrew wing?



#10 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:43 AM

I am going to try my best to extend this post gentleman. I need pictures of true, authenticated wings with the roundel center so that I can begin to do an analysis of them and gain insight into those wings. Better yet, if the more advanced collectors already have these pictures in hand and know what to display as the tells on the Angus and Coote wings with the roundel center, please add to this post. Please let me know if you want to send me pictures with a PM and I will give an address to forward them to. Thank you for your responses gentleman and blessings as always in your collecting.

#11 Steve Brannan

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:48 AM

Thank you for this clear delineation of original vs counterfeit. I first saw these counterfeit wings at a military show a year ago but was suspicious of the large quantity for sale, all in unissued condition and all for $95 each. They were too good to be true. Sound familiar. This one of those rare instances where the counterfeit is more detailed than the original. Can we expect more of this type computer copies of rare military insignia in the future? Yes

#12 mtnman

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:02 AM

By the way, I could use both counterfeit and authentic pictures of aircrew, navigator, bombardier and flight surgeon which is what I meant by the wings with the roundel center... Please forgive my lack of clarity

#13 tomcatter

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:31 PM

This is a great tutorial, thank you!



#14 costa

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:43 PM

EXCELLENT ADVICE MEL----- THE LITTLE THINGS MEAN ALOT.



#15 tarbridge

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 04:52 AM

Here are the images of the shields of the Reproduction Angus & Coote Service...Liason and Glider...all three of these display the straight up "&"...on the manufacturer name on reverse as shown earlier in this thread...


rps20150418_084538.jpg
rps20150418_084628.jpg
rps20150418_084451.jpg

Edited by tarbridge, 18 April 2015 - 04:53 AM.


#16 mtnman

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 05:37 AM

Well Done tarbridge, THANK YOU! These would be good examples of counterfeit aging process results as well....

Edited by mtnman, 18 April 2015 - 05:38 AM.


#17 wingman

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 11:24 AM

I have yet to see one, or be convinced that Angus & Coote EVER made the 'lettered' wings (i.e., L,G & S).

 

If any of my fellow collectors has one, we would all be mighty please to see it.



#18 BROBS

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 11:38 AM

I haven't seen one I thought was real...

that doesn't mean there isn't one out there, though... maybe?

 

Thanks a lot for this thread it's very helpful.

 

It would be great if we could do more threads like this on a lot of the highly reproduced items/wings/etc.

-Brian



#19 mtnman

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 11:41 AM

I am with you wingman,I have NEVER SEEN A TRUE GLIDER, SERVICE OR LIAISON WING by A&C. It would be a real treat to see one if there are any out there.

#20 bschwartz

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 12:22 PM

I did see an A&C Glider wing at Show of Shows in 2004 and I have to believe that was before they were faking them.  I didn't get a very good look at it as it was too rich for my blood at the time but there it was in all its splendor in a vendor case.  It didn't last long.  I saw it on pass one and by the time I got to pass two it was gone.  I don't know of anyone who has one in their collection.  It certainly can't be a very common item.  



#21 pfrost

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 01:35 PM

Just an FYI, there is a very nice A&G glider wing shown in the "More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens" book.  I may be wrong, but I believe this book preceeds the currrent A&G fakes.



#22 mtnman

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 02:21 PM

I just looked it up and confirmed, you nailed it Patrick. The design indications on the Maker's Mark and the "other indications" ARE RIGHT ON! I totally forgot about that wing in the MSWPG. THANKS for access to your excellent memory and copious experience Patrick. I thought the shield might look TOO MUCH like the Firmin shields, but they are actually SIMILAR BUT not exact in design. The corners are more ROUNDED on the A&C wing but on the FIRMIN LIAISON wing I have, the shield is more SHARP in the angles.

Edited by mtnman, 19 April 2015 - 02:35 PM.


#23 rustywings

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 02:42 PM

I have yet to see one, or be convinced that Angus & Coote EVER made the 'lettered' wings (i.e., L,G & S).

 

If any of my fellow collectors has one, we would all be mighty please to see it.

 

 

I've never seen an authentic Angus & Coote hallmarked Aerial Gunner or Bombardier badge either.  Are they out there? 



#24 mtnman

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 02:47 PM

Only seen one from KG LUKE Bombardier , NOT Angus & Coote (From Flying Tigers Antiques Most Excellent Site)

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Edited by mtnman, 19 April 2015 - 02:52 PM.


#25 pfrost

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 03:23 PM

To expand a bit, here is a comparision with a badge I have (that I belive to be good) and a conterfit posted on another thread by B17 John.  I have higlighted a number of the differences in the two wings.

 

 

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  • IMG_1377.jpg



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