SKIPH Posted March 27, 2015 Share #1 Posted March 27, 2015 Up for study and discussion. Just found this M4 CASE, w/ CASE M3 dated blade, with a leather handle. Ebay item # 281642449164. I do not know the seller. This is pretty unique to me. Have seen, and own an M4 with an M3 Camillus blade, w/ rubber handle and 50s guard. The CASE is a little different, It has a WW2 leather handle, and guard. Have never seen an M4 built from an M3 that was dated. Haven't yet dug out my Case dated M3 to compare stamp on blade yet, or my Case M4. So far at a glance, the pommel is my big question. Not sure about the pins. Reason being ,is if this where a "prototype" example, it would have been made before the pins were punched/indented, also not sure about peening. I can't study this at the moment, but will follow up on this tomorrow. I'm not bidding on it, so if it helps someone great. It just caught my interest, and would be a good topic for discussion. This could be interesting! If someone could post the ad I'd appreciate it. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted March 27, 2015 Share #2 Posted March 27, 2015 Here you go Skip... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted March 27, 2015 Share #3 Posted March 27, 2015 At first glance it gives me the impression of being re-parkerized. I really don't follow the M4's so any 2 cents from me would be grossly over valued. Looking forward to what others hear see. P.S. I'm not crazy about that "star burst" stacking job either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorin6 Posted March 27, 2015 Share #4 Posted March 27, 2015 Looks like it has undergone a refurbishment and has been parkerized. The peening on the pommel doesn't look right, but I don't have a Case M4 to compare. Could be a case of someone other than the military putting together an M4 out of parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorin6 Posted March 27, 2015 Share #5 Posted March 27, 2015 Here's the comments on the site: "RARE. This is a CASE blade that was repurposed in Japan by ther US Ordance dept to make more M4 carbine bayonets. This is in fantastic condition and a very RARE model. Not many seen with this blade." I don't know if there is anyway to prove or disprove this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayonetman Posted March 27, 2015 Share #6 Posted March 27, 2015 I have had someone who brought this to my attention recently. Although I of course cannot be sure, it is my OPINION that the statement that this is one of the circa 58,000 M3 knives that were converted to M4 in Japan as mentioned above. Among the things I noted were the shape of the tang peen, which is definitely not normal for Case, and possibly the grip in that the grooves are not like the Case in my collection. The following information is summarized from a part of one of Frank Trzaska's Knife Knotes: "Realizing that the cost of labor in Japan was much lower, the Ordnance Corps contracted for the conversion of about 58,000 M3 knives to M4 bayonets in Japan. The process was began about April 1953 and ended in January 1954. It is likely that this accounts for most of the M4 bayonets with M3 blade marks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navybean Posted March 27, 2015 Share #7 Posted March 27, 2015 I am curious, If the knife was repurposed in Japan from a Case M3 why would the M4 cross guard also be marked Case? Above statement does not sound like it is specific to just Case M3 to M4 unless I am missing something (which is possible) I Would not think Govt would care if guard maker and blade maker were same brand? Looks like a M4 put together by Case at Case to me and possibly refinished later? Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted March 27, 2015 Robert, thanks for posting picture. I still have the same questions as all of you. The one thing I have seen from the few converted M3 was that light colored parkerization. Have see that shade/finish on the ones that I have personally seen. Seems we're all on the same track. When I get home from work will start to investigate closer. This interests me. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted March 27, 2015 Just pulled out my Case M4, and blade-dated M3. Here is what I observed. My Case M4 is peened, (smooth)not staked, Pins not indented,and go through pommel, and into the slots on the handle, leather handle is very close if not the same. The stamp on the guard is identical. The stamps on my Case M3 dated are identical. This could be a very early Case conversion, or a great job done in Japan. But, as I recall, Case used a dark blue on their M4s, at least mine is. I am at a lose. Hard pressed to believe someone faked this, but you never know. Need to see another for comparison. WOW! Need a bunch more input. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share #10 Posted March 27, 2015 Also, my Case M4 handle is "V" cut grooved. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted March 29, 2015 Share #11 Posted March 29, 2015 I'm not an M3 guy, but I know the value of checking the fonts of each marking. Did Case use different font styles in their blade dated M3s? Here's a comparison of a Case blade dated M3, and the ebay M4 with Case dated blade. The U is different, the S is different, the M is different. Not so sure about this one. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted March 29, 2015 Here's a point for consideration! Look at the cutting edge, you can see grind lines, like late M7 bayonet blades. Marv- Good pic, really helps. Some of that font is different. Could very well be a fake, designed to fool all of us. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted March 29, 2015 This is a fake I found for sale in 2006. It's a blade marked Utica. See how many questionable discrepancies you find. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #14 Posted March 29, 2015 The Utica was on ebay, I didn't buy,but kept the pic. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillus Posted March 29, 2015 Share #15 Posted March 29, 2015 what about this senerio: somebody at Case make the conversion suggestion the only way to know for sure is to acctually make some conversion to check feasibility and cost. just a suggestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #16 Posted March 29, 2015 camillus- It could have been that way. We'll never know. But, if you look at that Utica, the first thing that should jump out is that they did not stamp"UTICA", on dated blades. It was US M3 UC 1943. So that one has fake all over it. It's all up in the air. I'm just trying to put info out there to new collectors. "Be Careful, and educate yourself !". SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillus Posted March 29, 2015 Share #17 Posted March 29, 2015 thanks skip, I didn't know that or remember, I am finding that there is more to collecting knives than just buying knives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tthen Posted March 29, 2015 Share #18 Posted March 29, 2015 I'm not an M3 guy, but I know the value of checking the fonts of each marking. Did Case use different font styles in their blade dated M3s? Here's a comparison of a Case blade dated M3, and the ebay M4 with Case dated blade. The U is different, the S is different, the M is different. Not so sure about this one. Marv Also look at the 3 and the 9. The originals have flat spots on the top and bottom. The other one has full radius top and bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillus Posted March 29, 2015 Share #19 Posted March 29, 2015 SKIP does that mean that all blade marked utica M3s are fake if the are marked utica, I have seen them on ebay before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted March 29, 2015 camillus-When they switched to blade marked (undated), Utica went w/ US M3, & their name. Which was a later marking, than the US M3 UC 1943 on early M3s. There is just no evidence after 72 years that "Utica 1943" marked blades exist. At least that any other collectors have revealed, no examples, or legitimate photos. M3s marked US M3 UTICA are legit. This is why I keep saying, get the references, study, and watch sites like ebay. This is how one learns! SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted March 29, 2015 Share #21 Posted March 29, 2015 When it comes to M3's the collector community, (if you will), generally refer to them as; 1. blade dated, (which will be makers ID & 1943) 2. blade marked, (makers ID) 3. guard marked Mike, I've found it impossible to keep everything in my head. The internet can help, but it also is full of bad information that just keeps being repeated over and over again. That's also true of books, a few are very well researched and will be very helpful. That being said overtime somethings turn out to be a little different than previously thought as research uncovers new facts and documents not seen before, and also everyone makes mistakes. It's an ongoing thing. I've found that I end up taking notes of things that I'm confident in that were well researched. If I haven't been working with something for awhile I can confuse a specific detail of one knife with a different pattern or maker, so I got to go back and refresh my memory all the time. Also new things keep coming to light. This site is great for a lot of reasons. If you haven't already I'd take advantage of Gary Cunningham's CD on his latest Bayonet Points. Contact Bayonetman with a PM and believe me it will be money well spent. I'll be getting his latest book when it comes out also, but I'm an "old guy" and I understand the value of paper documents too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #22 Posted March 29, 2015 I'm gonna throw this out there. These exist, and are rare, have only seen 2 for sale in my life. Never had hands on. CASE, made these, and they're guard marked US M3 CASE. Cole has a line drawing in his book. Reason I'm putting this on here is, you could run across it at a yard sale, or flea market for a few bucks. Don't brush it off as fake. Eighteen groove handle. Love to get one. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillus Posted March 29, 2015 Share #23 Posted March 29, 2015 Hi, thanks for the information, I am looking for a Coles III I but as you say even books can mislead and there is one site on the internet that I see alot but I don't trust, that is why I ask a lot of question, there are so many fine points that aren't in books thank you all for your patience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share #24 Posted March 29, 2015 Just messaged this Case Multi-groove w/ Bill Walters, it's a fake! Here's the ebay # 321709437982. The pommel is not peened like Case normally does, and Bill says the handle is wrong. Since you don't see these ever, always check with board members. I wasn't about to drop $2000 with no verification anyway. The last one I say a while back was only at $500. We all need to be careful. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share #25 Posted April 5, 2015 Just a follow-up, the Case M4 w/ dated M3 blade, sold for $382. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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