The Helicopter that should have been

[Gary Cain]

Five points to the first person to identify this helicopter!

[Spathologist]

Cheyenne, AH-56A.

 

It's sitting in front of the Rucker Museum now.

 

[Gary Cain]

Give the man a ceegar! I just picked up a whole bunch of Lockheed photo's from a garage sale and there are twenty or so pictures of it. It was such an awesome aircraft, far superior to the AH 64.

 

Here are a couple more pictures.

 

 

Gary

[Gary Cain]

2

Give the man a ceegar! I just picked up a whole bunch of Lockheed photo's from a garage sale and there are twenty or so pictures of it. It was such an awesome aircraft, far superior to the AH 64.

 

Here are a couple more pictures.

Gary

[Spathologist]

Now parked as a museum display at Ft. Rucker...Sic Transit Gloria...

 

[Plant#4]

It was such an awesome aircraft, far superior to the AH 64.

Its interesting to listen to the "what ifs" conversations about weapons programs that lost, some have valid points and others just make you shake your head at thier reasoning. All losers have a champion somewhere. Although, boeing's entry into the JSF contest makes you wonder just what they were thinking...

I f you are interested in parting with a few pictures PM me, I may have something to trade you.

Dave

[J_Andrews]

I was told by people involved in the testing of the AH-56 Cheyenne that it was too little, too late and too damn expensive to keep on living. It was a very nice "Supersuper Cobra" and would have been great in VN, but would have been no great shakes in a NATO vs. WP massed-armor scenario. At least not if compared with the AH-64. Of course, that pits the sub-systems (weapons, avionics, etc.) against each other as much as the aircraft itself.

 

When I was in IOBC at Benning in 1968, one of my aviator classmates was earmarked for assignment to the Cheyenne test and eval program. He had already flown in it as a guest of Lockheed, en route to Benning from his fourth tour in VN.

[CaptCav]

You have my father to thank for the death of the AH-56A. He lobbied long and hard to deep six it. It just may have been one of the smartest decisions made by the Army. Slick PR photos and brochures do not tell the story of an aircraft; riddled with serious performance "issues". There was no quick fix and the demise of the Cheyenne set back the AAH (Advanced Attack Helicopter) program substantially. If any of you are interested in the real story..... PM me.

[brandon_rss18]

cool heli, speaking of helicopters that could have been, what ever happened to the Comanche? I remember thinking in the early 90's how cool that thing looked. Do they/did they ever use these in combat? Was this experimental?

[AndrewA74]

cool heli, speaking of helicopters that could have been, what ever happened to the Comanche? I remember thinking in the early 90's how cool that thing looked. Do they/did they ever use these in combat? Was this experimental?

The Comanche project was scrapped around 2001 due to it's cost.

Andrew

[CorsairAce]

Gary are you teasing us? You said you had a lot of Lockhead photos you picked up and I only see 2. Can we see more? Pleeeease?

[J_Andrews]

The RAH-66 Coamanche project was abandoned due to its soaring research and development costs PLUS the fact that, with the demise of the USSR/WP, there was not much of a mission left for it.

 

It would (might?) have been just super-keen, but it was NOT NEEDED. As a compromise, IIRC its engine and various electronic sub-systems have been kept alive and installed as upgrades to older types, i.e. OH-58, AH-64.

 

Army Aviation RD&A (Res, Development and Acquisition) programs have LONG been "hobby horses" for a few Generals, their retinue of Colonel pals, and the industrial corporations. For the former class, they are driven by ego and ambition (promotion, aggrandizement), and for the latter it's all about money. But then the aircraft projects are just more egregious than lesser-dollar stuff, whether its body armor, trucks or small arms.

[hawkdriver]

There is another Cheyenne sitting in a hangar at Ft. Polk. It had been left sitting in the pine trees for many years corroding away until someone drug it in the hangar and are slowly trying to restore it, that was back in 2003. While a slick looking machine, when you get to looking at it close, there was very little in the way of "advanced". Probably a good idea that it went away, it's demise led to the Apache.

[Spathologist]

Probably a good idea that it went away, it's demise led to the Apache.

 

And what would we make fun of if we didn't have Apaches...???

[swag]

And what would we make fun of if we didn't have Apaches...???

 

58's of course.

[hawkdriver]

Ya, but making fun of 58's is like making fun of handicapped people, it's just wrong no matter how fun it is.

[swag]

Well there's always the UAV's.

[mpguy80/08]

I'm not sure if its still there but there was a Cheyenne at Fort Polk's Museum when I was there in 1989-1991...

 

Wayne

[Cobrahistorian]

Hey all,

 

There are four AH-56As remaining. Two at Rucker, one at Campbell and one at Polk. The RAH-66 Comanches are both at Rucker now. The Cheyenne was an amazing aircraft, and I've been fortunate to see three of the four and actually get to sit in the two at Rucker (and one of the two Comanches!).

 

As a historian of the Army Attack helicopter, both are fascinating and were significant leaps in technology for their time. Unfortunately, in both cases, cost overruns and production delays killed the programs. The Comanche was an inherently flawed concept from the beginning. A "stealth" helicopter is an oxymoron. By the time the Comanche would have been production-ready, it was going to be overloaded, overweight, and underpowered. It was killed in 2004 after nearly 20 years of development. A good friend of mine actually broke the story.

 

The AH-64 (both A and D) has benefitted from both of these programs and has become a much more capable platform from the demise of these two amazing aircraft. As a Longbow Driver along with being a historian, it is amazing seeing the bits of "Cheyenne and Comanche DNA" that has ended up in my helicopter!

 

v/r

 

Jon

[Rotorwash]

Gary,

Thanks for starting this thread and showing us some of your pics. I'm new here so I thought I'd add a few to the mix from the Army Aviation Museum archives.

Ray

 

 

 

 

Cockpit shot from the stored AH-56 at Rucker (since she has not been outside, she is in very good shape overall):

 

 

 

 

Finally, here's the cockpit of one of the RAH-66's as well for comparison:

 

Gunner:

 

Pilot's seat:

 

 

 

[hawkdriver]

A few points of interest.

 

1. Obviously this thing was designed without much thought for the pilot's safety during a firefight. Notice how high in the seat the pilot sits!

 

2. Can anyone say "rigid rotor system"

 

3. Notice how the gunner seat sits on a turret.

[Cobrahistorian]

A few points of interest.

 

1. Obviously this thing was designed without much thought for the pilot's safety during a firefight. Notice how high in the seat the pilot sits!

 

2. Can anyone say "rigid rotor system"

 

3. Notice how the gunner seat sits on a turret.

 

 

Yeah, on production models, the rotor mast was supposed to be taller. The 1/2p hop in the main rotor was the cause of the program's fatal crash, where it bounced down and came through the cockpit. Baaaaad juju.

 

As far as sitting on the turret, the gunner actually sat on top of the sensor turret. The gun turret is aft of there. As a guy who sits atop the turret, that isn't much of a big deal. Feels kinda funny when you pull the trigger, though.

 

Jon

[hawkdriver]

Yeah, on production models, the rotor mast was supposed to be taller. The 1/2p hop in the main rotor was the cause of the program's fatal crash, where it bounced down and came through the cockpit. Baaaaad juju.

 

As far as sitting on the turret, the gunner actually sat on top of the sensor turret. The gun turret is aft of there. As a guy who sits atop the turret, that isn't much of a big deal. Feels kinda funny when you pull the trigger, though.

 

Jon

 

Same reason they put a mast extension on a Hawk. You Apache guys tend to have a little problem with rotors in the canopy, I've been privy to a few accidents where that happened. They used a road barricade to simulate where the blade come through... ouch.

If I'm not mistaken, the front seat in the Cheyenne, on that sensor turret, turned. It's been many moons since I stuck my head in the one at Polk, if memory serves me correctly, the turret and seat were sitting on the hangar floor and all I could think was that I wouldn't feel very good about sitting on something that could literally, just fall out the bottom. At least a blade in the cockpit is an act of God, seat falling out the bottom is God with a sense of humor.

[Cobrahistorian]

Same reason they put a mast extension on a Hawk. You Apache guys tend to have a little problem with rotors in the canopy, I've been privy to a few accidents where that happened. They used a road barricade to simulate where the blade come through... ouch.

If I'm not mistaken, the front seat in the Cheyenne, on that sensor turret, turned. It's been many moons since I stuck my head in the one at Polk, if memory serves me correctly, the turret and seat were sitting on the hangar floor and all I could think was that I wouldn't feel very good about sitting on something that could literally, just fall out the bottom. At least a blade in the cockpit is an act of God, seat falling out the bottom is God with a sense of humor.

 

Apparently the distance record for sending the PNVS turret flying from a blade strike is something well over 100m. It is kinda odd that you can cut your own nose off if you're not careful. Then again, you guys can't back up if you've got your 144 installed, so we've all got issues!

 

There is something odd about that rotating front seat though. Never got to sit up front in the Cheyenne, only back seat. Man was that cool! Wish I could take her up, just once.

 

Jon

[hawkdriver]

Then again, you guys can't back up if you've got your 144 installed, so we've all got issues!

 

Hadn't thought of that! We turned them in, so now maybe we can start taxiing backwards too! Freakiest thing I ever saw, sitting at BIAP waiting my turn at the FARP under goggles and the Apache just started rolling backwards. Scared the crap out of me, hadn't seen that before and he didn't announce, had that Spatial Disorientation thing going, I was jamming my pedals looking for the brake! Of course, then his buddy took off straight out, sliding sideways and hit the fire extinguisher, knocking it over.