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What do you think about these Meyer wings?


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#26 pfrost

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 01:40 PM

According to JoeW, who once sent me an unsolicited email about NS Meyers, is that they actually employed multiple manufacturers for their insignia and that is why you tend to find so many different styles and placements.

 

I suspect that for this reason, many of the different styles overlap rather than precede each other in order.

 

I think that too many collectors try to think about these things in a linear fashion with nice clear "demarkations" between wings and patterns.  "Pre-war, early v late 30's, 20's vintage, early WWII, late WWII, KW-vintage Frankly, I think many of these are artifacts of what people what to think rather than what is really the case.  It's almost like the collectors want the manufacturers to have said -- "Well, the Japanese went and did it now, lets go make new dies now that WWII has started!".

 

Broadly speaking, the NS Meyer Adam's style USAAC wings (pilot, observer, balloon, airship, etc) all are probably all from the 20's and 30's.  The USAAF Pelican wings were probably made from WWII (lets just say circa 1942 when all the new ratings were authorized) all the way up until the cold war.  The USAF wings with the alpha/numeric wings were made from the late-50's/early 60's until NS Meyer went out of business.

 

USAAC wings in the Adam's design seemed to have just used the shield (~1919 to 1942).  Pelican wings used all sorts of different variations and placements (1942-1960).  Alpha/numeric used letter/number (1960-current).  There are probably exceptions to this rule and a fair amount of overlap.  With NS Meyer, their is almost always exceptions to this rule and overlap.  Frankly, trying to "date" a wing to any more than these broad time periods outside of a "biographical wing" is (IMHO) silly.

 

IIRC the first wave of NS Meyer restrikes started showing up in the 80's (in some of the harder to find ratings--balloon, TO, airship).  Made by NS Meyer for the collector market, they were made with the original dies and had the "wrong" pins.  Since that time, there seem to have been multiple other waves of restrikes like the alphabet wings (they had wrong pins and also a shinny black glossy finish on the back).

Since then, you see other NS Meyer-like wings to fool collectors, like NSM wings with the hallmarks removed (and not infrequently with a fake hallmark added instead). You see wings where the "wrong" pin is removed and replaced with a vintage wing.  One thing I don't see is where the pin and catch are removed and replaced with a clutch back. 

 

Finally, B17 John is spot on, there really isn't much proof other than general observations and specific biographical wings that can be used to nail down the date of when these were made (much less sold or worn).

 

Sill, no matter what, as a collector you have to decide on your own about NSM wings.  I can promise you that no matter what, 3 people will say one way and 2 will go the other. 

 

P


Edited by pfrost, 31 January 2016 - 01:41 PM.


#27 hawk3370

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 06:47 PM

Vietnam era

 

This Gentlemen is why I haven't dived into the WW2 wings arena. Like the computer age of which I am totally ignorant (Still living in the pencil and eraser stage of life) I find the WW2 wings confusing to say the least. I have learned how to turn on the computer, check my e-mail and the forum and I can pick up a WW2 wing, say that's nice and put it back.

 

Terry


Edited by hawk3370, 31 January 2016 - 06:49 PM.


#28 rustywings

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 12:54 PM

As stated several times above by dedicated aerial badge collectors, the only way to really get an edge on not getting burnt with reproductions and restrikes, is to get out there and handle as many examples as possible and absorb what is right as much as what is wrong with each piece. 

 

This also means making the effort to seek out reputable dealers and fellow collectors to help expand your exposure to authentic wings before you open your wallet. 

 

Check out ebay auction #321998283239 which describes an "Original Pre-WWII N.S. Meyer U.S. Observer Sterling Silver wing..." and "Vintage...nice piece to add to your WWII wing collection." Obviously the seller doesn't have a clue what he's listed, but his verbiage in the description could certainly be appealing enough to lure an unsuspecting buyer. 

 

In reality, this listed Meyer restrike is attempting to portray an extremely rare 1920 Observer's badge to only be worn by those who previously qualified as a Pilot. The badge was authorized for only a year before they changed the design by removing the "U.S." from the center. 

 

I believe a new collector will likely encounter hundreds, if not thousands of these restrikes before he runs across an authentic 1920-1921 period piece. And in all likelihood, will have to pay $1,000.00 to $1,500.00, not "$128.95 buy-it-now" to add it to his collection.

 

Here's the current ebay listing:

   

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#29 rustywings

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 01:12 PM

For comparison, here's what I believe an authentic Meyer-made 1920's Observer badge should look like. Note the incised Meyer shield (further debunking the quote from "A Companion To Wings Of WWII"); the very small "STERLING" stamp; the Tiffany style lever catch; the cam-stop pin; the additional feathering details; and the overall appearance and surface texture of the reverse. 

 

For me, sometimes these wings talk and make it easier to decipher what is right or wrong with the badge. After handling many Meyer restrikes, this badge screamed authenticity at me!

 

    

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  • 1921 OBS wing #1B.jpg
  • 1921 OBS wing #3A.jpg

Edited by rustywings, 05 February 2016 - 08:08 AM.


#30 rustywings

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 02:17 PM

I hope I'm not pushing this subject of Meyer restrikes vs. Meyer original badges beyond the point of interest, but if you have any tough-to-find original Meyer badges you'd like to share, this might be the ideal thread to do so... and I for one, would sure like to see them!  



#31 Patchcollector

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 07:48 PM

I found this image of various Meyer hallmarks on another thread from this Forum.Would figure # 4 be the match for the one I posted?

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Edited by Patchcollector, 26 July 2016 - 07:58 PM.


#32 B-17Guy

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 09:38 PM

That diagram has been around for a long time.

I have seen legitimate Meyer wings not fall within the guidance set by this chart.

To be honest, I don't put too much faith in it...it's an interesting reference, just not iron clad.

Again, collectors are looking for a silver bullet in dating wings...

My two cents.

 

John


Edited by B-17Guy, 26 July 2016 - 09:40 PM.


#33 Gerradtgrant

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:10 PM

That diagram has been around for a long time.
I have seen legitimate Meyer wings not fall within the guidance set by this chart.
To be honest, I don't put too much faith in it...it's an interesting reference, just not iron clad.
Again, collectors are looking for a silver bullet in dating wings...
My two cents.
 
John

Hi, I have a few pictured to submit and see what you think. The two pictures I have are not very good. I took them and sent them to somebody I know who is very knowledgeable in WWII wings. He instantly said Meyer wings are faked to often and didn't want to speculate anymore. If there is any chance they are real I would love to own them. If anything about these two pictures gets you excited please tell me and I will go take better more detailed pictures. Wanted a generic opinion before I drive the hour to take more. Thank You in advance. Posted Image
Posted Image

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#34 pfrost

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:13 PM

There is probably nothing wrong with either those wings.  The 3 incher is a NS Meyer wing but is right as rain.  The 2 incher is a "Bell pattern" wing.

 

Patrick



#35 Gerradtgrant

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:25 PM

There is probably nothing wrong with either those wings.  The 3 incher is a NS Meyer wing but is right as rain.  The 2 incher is a "Bell pattern" wing.
 
Patrick

I didn't assume the 2in was a ns Meyer it doesn't have any maker marks. And rough idea on value as I don't want to over pay? Or is it safer if I run and never look back?

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#36 pfrost

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:31 PM

Value is relative, but if they price is shown on those cards, you should run away.  NS Meyer wings are never going to command great value anyway and with patience you will find them much cheaper.  I wouldn't pay more than 40-50$ for the 3 inch NS Meyer navigator wing and probably not more than $25 for the 2 inch wings.  They aren't that rare.

 

It just depends on how badly you want them.


Edited by pfrost, 27 July 2016 - 02:32 PM.


#37 pfrost

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:37 PM

not associated with this auction at all, but here is one for about $55.  Make an offer or wait and see if you can find one cheaper.

 

http://www.ebay.com/...7UAAOSwqfNXi4Iy

 

and the 2incher for about 30$

 

http://www.ebay.com/...dUAAOSw0fhXkBY2


Edited by pfrost, 27 July 2016 - 02:39 PM.


#38 Gerradtgrant

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:53 PM

not associated with this auction at all, but here is one for about $55.  Make an offer or wait and see if you can find one cheaper.
 
http://www.ebay.com/...7UAAOSwqfNXi4Iy
 
and the 2incher for about 30$
 
http://www.ebay.com/...dUAAOSw0fhXkBY2

Thank You for your help. I want one but not that badly. I will look around and patiently wait to snipe one at a much lower price.

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#39 pfrost

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:02 PM

That is a good strategy.



#40 bschwartz

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:14 PM

That diagram has been around for a long time.

I have seen legitimate Meyer wings not fall within the guidance set by this chart.

To be honest, I don't put too much faith in it...it's an interesting reference, just not iron clad.

Again, collectors are looking for a silver bullet in dating wings...

My two cents.

 

John

 

Bingo.  Totally agree John.  I've seen many wings that are vet owned that don't agree with that chart at all.  It's a good chart to show the different types of marks that Meyer used but I wouldn't rely on the associated dates.  Not trying to ding whoever created it I just have seen too many things that don't fit the dates.



#41 B-17Guy

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 09:55 AM

In light of recent comments and questions on Meyer wings, I thought I would bump one of the more informative threads back to the top.

#42 Kilroy56

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 11:27 PM

Thank you for your time.


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