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What do you think about these Meyer wings?


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#1 awmartin

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 10:06 PM

I'm just wondering about what you guys think about these meyer wings. Both wings have pins which open to 45 degrees and don't look cast. I didn't like the placement of the hallmarks on the bottom wing, especially with the shield being partially washed out, but I can't tell if this was from wear of from being cast.

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  • P2192331.JPG


#2 awmartin

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 10:07 PM

Here is a picture of the back.

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#3 B-17Guy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 04:07 AM

Those are re-strikes.

John



#4 mattsmilitary

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 04:56 AM

I agree, restiikes



#5 Paul C.

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:45 AM

Yep,  both are bad  But they aren't cast, the dies are wearing out


Edited by Paul C., 03 March 2015 - 05:46 AM.


#6 pfrost

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 08:48 AM

I would suspect that these restrikes originally had a dark laquer like coating on the back as many of the restrikes have.  I would also suspect that these wings had the wrong hardware.  What the faker seems to have done is remove the wrong fittings, then used a buffing wheel to take off the back coating and then re-attached the vintage-appropriate hardware (probably from a cheaper wing).

 

The "wear" on the hallmark is from the buffing out process, I believe.  They then tried to repatinate the wing using chemical means.

 

If you look at the STERLING mark (which is the wrong font, so that is another indication of restrike) you can see the original laquer finish still present.

 

These restrikes have been around for a long time and some of them are getting pretty hard to tell from the originals.  You just have to handle alot of them.



#7 B-17Guy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 12:44 PM

Here is a quick object lesson...

Remember, it takes a long time to learn Meyer re-strikes.

You have to handle and see a lot of them, but once you learn what to

look for, you can spot them easy.

 

John

 

#1 Top bad, bottom good.

Attached Images

  • Meyer Orig vs Restrike 002.jpg


#8 B-17Guy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 12:47 PM

#2 Top bad, bottom good.

Look at the findings, especially the base of the pin.

Look how the bottom edge of the wing has been made to appear worn.

 

Attached Images

  • Meyer Orig vs Restrike 003.jpg


#9 B-17Guy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 12:49 PM

#3 Foreground good, background bad.

Notice the base of the pin again and the two "feet" that are used to attach it to the badge.

Classic Meyer re-strike pin.

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  • Meyer Orig vs Restrike 005.jpg


#10 B-17Guy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 12:53 PM

#4 Bottom good, top bad.

Notice the pin again and also notice the edges of the wings.

Very different.

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  • Meyer Orig vs Restrike 014.jpg


#11 costa

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 01:50 PM

meyer is the most faked wing??? seems to be



#12 BROBS

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 03:46 PM

Certainly is IMO

#13 Patchcollector

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 04:42 PM

Thanks Patrick for the info and thanks also to John for the photo comparison.From the front,I can't see any differences that jump out at me,which makes sense if they are restrikes.I guess all the "tells" are on the back,much like in the "patch" world.



#14 BROBS

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:00 PM

Back, sides, and pin.
I agree with the thanks. This helps a lot when identifying the timeframe of these wings.

I knew about the pin but the hallmark difference most notably the font is news to me. Also the side view helps.

-Brian

#15 bschwartz

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:31 PM

Great summary John.  Also, as Patrick noted, look at the difference in the sterling marks.  The sterling marks on the originals are MUCH smaller than on the restrikes.  



#16 Patchcollector

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:34 PM

Good stuff all.Armed with this info,I will feel more confident when browsing the Meyer stuff.



#17 pfrost

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 06:21 PM

I always say the thing about NS Meyer wings is that it is rare to reach a consensus, and even if you convince 3 people, the 4th one will come along and argue with you about the whole thing.  Eventually, you get a feel for a "good" wing, but even then, it is never going to be as valuable as another maker. 

 

You just have to decide what level of risk you are willing to take.



#18 fstop61

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 12:11 PM

Great information fellows-hope this gets pinned.



#19 BROBS

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 04:55 PM

the back edges of the restrikes seem to be more ground/polished down.  

I don't know if that's because the edges look like crap when the dies wear out or just because they cleaned them up more... but something else to note.

 

-Brian



#20 hawk3370

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 07:13 AM

In the thread on "Opinions of a WW1 Wing" there is a ref to a previous thread on Meyer restrikes.This covered basically the pin as a give away but what about the hallmarks.

 

Years ago there was a book published "A Companion to Wings of WW2". In this reference the author states the following

 

"The earliest version we find is N.S. Meyer, Inc, New York. By the 1930's the "Inc" was eliminated and the corporate shield was added. During the 1930's and 40's the hallmarks were incised and shields were raised at the side of the name, but raised hallmarks were also used concurrently in the early 1940's. Post war pieces up to 1953 have the name in raised letters and the shield centered below the name, which by then was much reduced in size. Other post war Meyers's wings might simply have the shield with no other inscription."

 

Looking forward to hearing what the authorities think of his research? Since reading that years ago I always assumed that any Meyer wing with just the shield was a post war piece.

 

I don't collect WW2 wings due to the confusion about restrikes and personally I can't tell the diff between a wing struck from the original die in 1940 and one struck from the same die yesterday.


Edited by hawk3370, 31 January 2016 - 07:22 AM.


#21 B-17Guy

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 08:16 AM

Hey Terry, thanks for the input.

I only mentioned the pin and not the hallmark's on the WWI wing thread because they were already discussed, but I agree, they are indicators as well.

We all have initial impressions and the pin base on a Meyer is one of the first things I look at.

Regarding the use of the shield, NS Meyer, New York yes, New York no, raised, stamped, etc, I have seen and heard lots of theories.

Someone even drew a chart showing the history once, nailing down all the dates for all the hallmarks by Meyer, then someone on the internet 

says "See here is proof". Yet, there is no hard evidence in official print that any of it is correct.

I have done a lot of research and this is the only OFFICIAL piece of evidence that I can find regarding the use of the Meyer Shield,

 

First used in commerce May 15 1917 and on record as a registered trademark (see image)

 

Collectors long to find "Silver Bullets" in dating badges and insignia.

As I think we all agree, the only way to learn about Meyer wings, is to handle a lot of them, seek guidance from experienced wing collectors 

and then make the best informed decisions we can. There are some great Meyer wings out there that are highly collectible, but we all must be

armed with the knowledge of how the tell good from bad.

 

Best, John

 

PS, I did find the trademark information for "MeyerMetal" as well, first used December 14, 1923

 

Also attaching a biographical Meyer pilot wing badge image from WWII worn by a friend that flew P-39's and P-40's

Attached Images

  • img127.jpg
  • Ralph Truglio's Meyer #398 004.jpg

Edited by B-17Guy, 31 January 2016 - 08:24 AM.


#22 cwnorma

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 08:23 AM

Terry,

I cannot fully answer your question--because I simply do not know enough about the time line of implementation for NS Meyer Hallmarks.  What I do know is that the two line; "N.S. Meyer Inc. NEW YORK" hallmark seems to be on many (if not nearly all) of the restrikes of early badges.  This leads me to several theories/conclusions:

 

1) That hallmark still exists and is in the hands of whoever owns the die and is producing the restricts

2) Perhaps the author of "A Companion to Wings of WW2" knows something we don't (this could go two ways):

   a) The author has some knowledge of real early wings with this hallmark

   B) The author has some interest in "legitimatizing" the "N.S. Meyer Inc. NEW YORK" hallmark.

 

Because I am somewhat ignorant on the actual details I can not say which (or something I haven't thought of) to be the case.  I am always leery of "research" as much of it in the "collectibles" arena is not true research at all.  Specifically is rarely fully peer-reviewed, and thus can be subject to the biases, pet theories, and/or misconceptions of the author.

 

Furthermore, there is a class of reproductionist that operate in a fully integrated approach.  For a great example, consider the so-called "Wells-Fargo" buckles.  The fakers involved went so far as to publish books and collector guides to the buckles.  All of them were however fantasy pieces.  There are also several well known instances of authors in the Third Reich badges arena who have been known to "legitimatize" bad items in their books for their own profit-motives.

 

Please note, I do not claim that the author wrote the passage in order to deceive.  I simply am too ignorant of the totality of the facts to make such an accusation.  I only note that at the very least, the two-line "N.S. MEYER Inc. NEW YORK" hallmark is still in existence and active use by someone involved in stamping out restrikes.

 

Chris



#23 cwnorma

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 09:16 AM

John,

 

So the wing you posted demonstrates two things with respect to the passage from "A Companion to Wings of WW2" Terry quoted above:

 

1) The statement; "By the 1930's the "Inc" was eliminated and the corporate shield was added" is not fully correct

2) The two-line "N.S. MEYER INC NEW YORK" hallmark was in use during WW2 (at least in an excised or raised fashion)--when did it come into use?  Are there earlier wings with this hallmark (either raised or stamped)?

 

Noteworthy as well is that raised hallmarks are of a decidedly different nature from stamped hallmarks.  Raised hallmarks must be a part of the die-hob, and are thus extremely difficult for fakers to reproduce without access to original hobbs.  Stamped hallmarks require access only to the appropriate stamps.  Which can be easily manufactured today.

 

Chris



#24 B-17Guy

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 10:52 AM

Here are two wings which can add a bit of a time stamp.

The Aviator is a pre-WWII pattern with the stamped style Meyer shield and stamped ROLLED GOLD, the second is a first

pattern Pilot with a stamped Meyer shield as well and stamped STERLING.

The wing in post #21 is a second pattern Meyer Pilot wing, which was purchased at Luke Field in 1944.

I have numerous Meyer wings in my collection with many combinations of marks and it is my feeling that the

 

N.S. MEYER INC.

   NEW YORK

 

with shield below; came about sometime around 1943-1944 (which is about when I think the second pattern pilot wing made it's appearance) and used for decades.

I had a Vietnam era Meyer Senior Pilot wing that had the exact same back mark in non-sterling and 9M.

 

As for raised or stamped STERLING, well, Meyer made wings from Sterling, Brass and Nickel, so many dies didn't have the STERLING mark incorporated,

it was added via stamping, depending on what base metal was used.

Also, remember brass was restricted in the 1943 and I think 1944 as a critical war material, so it was not supposed to be used in that time frame for badges.

Maybe that is why STERLING was part of the die-hob in late WWII?

 

John

Attached Images

  • Navy Meyer Rolled Gold Aviator engraved #608 002.jpg
  • Meyer Pilot engraved 1942 #629 002.jpg


#25 B-17Guy

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 10:56 AM

Vietnam era

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  • post war meyer sp set 002.jpg



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