Saber Knot Identification

[noworky]

Took a drive 192 miles to Salt Lake City yesterday to pick up a SA 1913 Patton serial # 1689. I was very happy with the saber and nickeled scabbard. I have two LF&C 1913 sabers one with a nickeled scabbard and one with the canvas covered and now I have the SA I have wanted. Coming back home the wife and I stopped at an indoor flea market in Ogden and I picked up this saber knot for $2.50.I'm thinking it's foreign but couldn't pass it up for the price. Anybody have any ideas on what it is? Thanks, Chris

 

[SARGE]

Chris,

 

Your sword knot is a fairly generic one that could be a couple of things. US leather officer knots normally had round braided straps but I have seen these on US 1902 Officer swords before. Japanese NCOs also wore this knot as did some South American military organizations. My first guess would be it is a Japanese NCO knot.

[Spathologist]

I had a small discussion over this type of knot in a thread over at Military Horse:

 

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/viewtop...?f=3&t=8845

 

I'd seen it on a few old M1902s, but had also seen it on French sabers and a couple of South American sabers. I think I've seen it, as Sarge says, on Japanese WWII swords, but the pictures have never been good enough to positively ID the tassle. As it isn't "regulation" for a M1902, I figured it was something someone along the line just put on the US swords.

 

But in the thread above, stablesgt posted images from an inter-war catalogue offering the "flat-strap" version for sale. I haven't seen any regulation description of the knot, so if your knot is a US item, it's probably a commercial item sold to officers.

 

Personally, my private thought is that these were being made and sold as "officer" alternatives to the M1912 knot.

[SARGE]

I had a small discussion over this type of knot in a thread over at Military Horse:

 

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/viewtop...?f=3&t=8845

 

I'd seen it on a few old M1902s, but had also seen it on French sabers and a couple of South American sabers. I think I've seen it, as Sarge says, on Japanese WWII swords, but the pictures have never been good enough to positively ID the tassle. As it isn't "regulation" for a M1902, I figured it was something someone along the line just put on the US swords.

 

But in the thread above, stablesgt posted images from an inter-war catalogue offering the "flat-strap" version for sale. I haven't seen any regulation description of the knot, so if your knot is a US item, it's probably a commercial item sold to officers.

 

Personally, my private thought is that these were being made and sold as "officer" alternatives to the M1912 knot.

 

 

I agree with Varangian. I think one of the keys to determining which one of these knots fits a specific sword might be found in the details. A well made knot that has folded strap edges, sewn strap edges, and is made of good quality leather might well have been used by US forces (amongst others). The knot shown above seems to be rather crudely manufactured and the lealther is poor. That is why I suspect it is most probably Japanese. The Japanese Army NCO knots were made like this and they were almost always made of poor quality leather. Some will have a tiny metal buckle on the strap and these are definitely Japanese. Some will have a short squat barrel shaped ball and these were usually worn by the Japanese Police. The devil is in the details.

[Spathologist]

I don't know that it's US, but I think a case can be made. I did some internetz digging and the tassel shape of the buckle-less Japanese knots I found is different than this knot. The wooden plug on the end is also very similar to that of M1902 knots.

 

The only glaring thing that gives me pause is the lack of woven leather for the sliders and tassel ends, but I have seen one knot on a M1902 and one catalogue advertisement where the the woven leather was absent.

 

Comparing it with the catalogue entries I've been able to dig up, though, overall I think it's closer to US or French design than Japanese or South American.

[SARGE]

I don't know that it's US, but I think a case can be made. I did some internetz digging and the tassel shape of the buckle-less Japanese knots I found is different than this knot. The wooden plug on the end is also very similar to that of M1902 knots.

 

The only glaring thing that gives me pause is the lack of woven leather for the sliders and tassel ends, but I have seen one knot on a M1902 and one catalogue advertisement where the the woven leather was absent.

 

Comparing it with the catalogue entries I've been able to dig up, though, overall I think it's closer to US or French design than Japanese or South American.

 

Varangian,

 

I copied the catalog photographs from the Military Horse website that came from Stablesergeant and were posted by Pat Holscher (trying to credit the photos properly). The catalog does show that these leather knots with flat straps were indeed sold to US Armly officers and were subsequently worn on the 1902 Army Officer sword.

 

 

I suspect that the knot that noworky shows is not a US utilized knot though. Of course, anything is possible.