15th & 17th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron Shoulder patches

[cavcon]

Ok, I need some help from forum members. I am curious as to why these patches are never identified for the correct unit for which they were worn? I know there are many patch books out there, including a pretty new and comprehensive one which also incorrectly identifies the patch below as the 15th Cavalry RCN. SQDN. shoulder patch. This is totally incorrect.

 

The patch below is the original 1st version/variation of the 17th Cavalry RCN. SQDN shoulder patch. This patch was introduced and scatterly worn from the latter part of 1944 to April/May 1946 when the shape changed to the post war "bullet" shape which is shown in the 2nd photo. The bullet patch was worn from April/May 1946 until 20 Decemeber, 1947 when the 17th Cavalry deactivated. These patches were ONLY worn as shoulder patches, never a pocket patch and have never been used again since 1946/47.

 

If anyone knows why collectors and sellers wont correctly identify them I would really like to know. If anyone is in disagreement please feel free to contact me. I am pretty sure I can prove what they were/are as this is one of my areas of interest. Thanks.

[cavcon]

17th Cavalry "Bullet" patch

[cavcon]

15th Cavalry Group and 15th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron shoulder patch

[phillock]

Hi Cavcon

 

I agree with your sentiment.

 

My guess is that in some publications the authors have not done their research and collectors and dealers have followed that line of logic for years. These books tend to have a lot of misidentification , reproductions (post use 50's , 60's made) that the new collector/dealer can get burnt or pass on misleading information. You can also see this all over ebay.

 

However there are a number of authors like the Kellers who have researched for years from archives to interviewing veterans and collecting and developing relationships with top end collectors. Their volume Emblems of Honor:Armor -Cavalry-TD-Constabulary has all 3 insignia listed as per your thread.

 

Part of the responsibility also lays with the collector .......do your research , there are a number of excellent references out there but alas some choose not to use them.

 

Phill

 

[Steve B.]

Why are the first two 17th Cav, but the last one is 15th Cav? The patches all have the same elements - golden lion, crossed swords, and red/white background. I can understand the confusion because the only difference I see is the shape of the patch itself, and there are plenty of unit insignia that change shapes over the years.

 

Can you explain the differentiation a little more for the rest of us?

[cavcon]

HI Phill: Thanks for your reply... I do agree with all that you said including how the Keller's put a lot of effort in to their books. I have them and think they are great books.

 

Steve: In talking to many old 15th and 17th vets, the reason for the 2 patches was that once the 15th Group landed in Normandy in mid July the 2 squadrons almost immediately broke apart and were attached to different divisions, corps and armies throughout the rest of the war. The 17th Squadron wanted their own patch but wanted to keep the lineage and heritage of the 15th Group so they just changed the shape of the patch to denote their individuality.

 

After the war ended both squadrons and the group became district constabulary units but both were now connected by Group Headquarters and had the same mission. Once the Constabulary became operational the 15th Group and 15th Squadron became regular Constabulary units. The 17th did not and became "palace guard" for the 3rd Army Headquarters in and around Heidelberg Germany. It was at this time that the 17th Squadron broke away totally from the 15th Group and had their own coat of arms made and changed the shape of the patch to match the coat of arms. I have added a photo of the COA below. You will see how the 2 are the same shape. Again, this is because the 17th Squadron no longer had any direct affiliation with the 15th Cavalry. The bullet patch and the crest both were last worn in January 1947.

 

Hope this helps some but feel free to PM if you have any other questions.

[Steve B.]

Interesting! I can understand how a lot of folks are confused.

 

Thanks for the great research and explanation.

[phillock]

Thanks Cavcon

 

For those of you who are members of ASMIC this is also in Dec. 93 Trading post online.

 

ASMIC is the leading publication on DI Patches etc . Its another must have tool to figure out the history of specific patches as an example 15th /17th Cav Recon Squadrons.

 

Thanks to Editor tredhed2-Dave K its in colour.

 

Phill

 

[QED4]

I have read this whole thing twice and I do not understand it ay all. Who is misidentifying these patches? Are you saying that both patches with the wide yellow border is the 17th Cav Sq? What you call the "Bullet patch" is not the 15th Cav Sq but rather a variation of the 17th? The way I understand it the 15th Cav Gp was first and used the red and white patch with the 15th and 17the Sqs making up the group. When the group was broken up the squadrons remained and needed patches. According to the rules of heraldry a new unit can add a wide border to the parent unit's insignia and use it as their own. This is what happened here with each unit using a different shape for their patch. I could be wrong or just not understanding what you are saying, wouldn't be the first time.

[cavcon]

nOK, sorry if I am confusing anyone.. I am not a great writer...

 

First, the ASMIC article from 1993 was written by me.. The patches have been mis-identified by collectors, dealers and authors for years. My father was in the 17th Cavalry Sqdn. and wore both variations of the patch. The 15th and 17th Squadrons were both formed after the 15th Cavalry Regiment (with 1st and 2nd Squadrons), was redesignated as the 15th Cavalry Group in 1944. The 1st Sqdn. became the 15th Cavalry Reconnaissance Sqdn. (mech) and the 2nd Sqdn. became the 17th Cavalry Reconnaissance Sqdn. (mech). After D Day, on or around the 15 or 16th of July, 1944, the 15th Group with both squadrons landed in Normandy and at this time the 2 squadrons were constantly assigned to different divisions, corps and armies as reconnaissance elements and never really fought as a "group" throughout the remainder of the war.

 

Prior to the 15th Cavalry Group, the Regiment and both 1st and 2nd Squadrons all wore the 15th Cavalry DI's with the motto; Tous Pour Un, Un Pour Tous and the only shoulder patch that was worn was the GHQ Reserve patch. After the Group landed in France the 1st 15th Cavalry patch was obtained locally. I have the Lt. Colonels patch that was made in France as per his wife when she gave it to me. The 17th felt that they had their own identity and wanted their own patch, hence the wider border, more square shaped patch. The 1st noted occurance of this patch being worn was by Captain Mike McGuire who had it painted on his leather bomber jacket prior to the 17th crossing the Rhine River. Then the patches became more noticed on field and Ike jackets.

 

When the wore ended the 15th Group and the 15th & 17th Squadrons united and became district constabulary units in the Western Military District of the US Zone. When the decision was made NOT to make the 17th a constabulary unit they became a separate squadron. This is the time they had their own distinctive unit insignia's made with the shape of the patch being the shape of the more "bullet" shaped patch. They then decided to change the shape of the patch as they broke away from the 15th and had their own identity. They crest is also what was used on their Squadron flag, which was German made and in my collection. Actually, if I am not mistaken, none of the patches are approved but the 15th Cavalry DI is. I know for sure the 17th patches and crest were never approved but absolutely worn.

 

I hope that helps... PM me if you or anyone wants more or photos...

[1SG_1st_Cav]

I like the discussion with this topic! Thanks!

[phillock]

Hi Cavcon

 

The only query I have is when the units landed in France and both served throughout Northern France , Rhineland Central Europe (re Sawicki pg180), presumably all of the patches would of been local theatre made ie French , German etc..The ones pictured are US made so would these be regarded as post WWII late 40's US manufactured made for both redesignated units from that time period or later?

Again reading Sawicki's Cav. Regiments of the US Army, both units were either reorganized , redesignated and or inactivated (too much for me to go into/slash understand) between 1945-48 period and beyond.

I can understand the mentality for individuality to foster a corp de spirit and we see that with many local theatre made units which is the norm.

 

Thanks again for sharing this info.

 

Phill

[cavcon]

I would have thought the same thing about the patches and the very earliest ones were.. Lt. Col. Quinn, who commanded the Group for most of the war as Col. Reybold was actually captured and spent the rest of the war as a POW, had a French made 15th Cavalry patch, Capt. McGuire had is "square shaped" patch painted on his leather bomber jacket. I have seen many different variations of the 15th Cavalry patch, most post war German made. The square and the bullet 17th patches have been mostly US made but the 17th's crests were only German made pin back, no clutch backs were ever worn. There are CB German made crests but they are later made for unknown reasons.

 

I have been in contact with many 17th Cav. Vets and anyone who served post war and gave me a patch from when they were in the unit it has been the US made pictured above. I have seen a few different variations of the bullet shaped patch that were German made. But I have ONLY seen 1 felt German made one of the more square shaped one. I am still amazed over that.

 

With regard to reorganization and redesignation, the 17th Cav. deactivated on 20 January 1947 and have never been activated again. The paperwork and books state that Co. F was later organized as the 501st Recon. BN and was located at Ft. Sill OK. but this was only on paper and only for a few short months. That is one of the reasons the 17th Cav. crest is identified as the 501st Reconnaissance BN. by ASMIC. The unit was never activated, never had any soldiers assigned to it and never wore any insignia.

 

The 15th Cavalry has never been activated as a full squadron since the end of WWII. Several Squadrons have been activated and attached to the 1st Cavalry, 2nd and 4th Armored Divisions, 197th Inf. BDE, Troop G was sent to Vietnam for a few months but I can not locate any information on them or what unit they were attached to and the 5th Squadron is still active today at Fr. Benning as a Cavalry Scout training Unit. So, the 15th Cavalry has worn several different shoulder patches but always wore the regular 15th Cavalry crest with French motto.

 

I would love to see some German/French variations of the 15th and especially the square 17th Cav. patch. If anyone has any please post... Hope that helps a little.

[phillock]

Thanks Cavcon

 

Much appreciated getting into detail and clarifying the misidentification.I for one use to think they were for the same unit and were only variations until the Kellers book and your ASMIC article (ASMIC online). Interesting to note Smitty's book (SSI 1946-89) has the 17th "Bullet" patch as 15th Cav. Sqn , so once something goes to print...............

 

Phill

[cavcon]

Funny you mention Smitty's book. I used to talk to him a lot and he was the only one who had a German made felt "square" patch that I knew of. He was supposed to let me have that patch "when he was through with it" but he passed away and his wife had no idea that we talked about the patch. I still have letters, yes, hand written letters from him about that patch. I also asked him why he identified that "bullet" patch as the 15th and he said simply, "I had no idea". He was going to correct it when and if he ever got around to publishing a new update. He was an awesome guy to talk to. I am not sure but I think Chris Alec wound up with the 17th Cavalry patch...

[cavcon]

Unit signs showing the 2 styles of the shoulder patches as well as the DI's worn with both styles.

[cavcon]

I am still just amazed at the so called experts and long time patch collectors who still just won't accept the books are wrong and so are they! These 3 patches are simple to identify correctly. They continue to purposely mis-identify them and cause confusion in the collecting world. I thought that's why we have this forum, to provide correct information on military history. Whoever is going to update or write a book on patches, please contact me or read these posts and let's get it right for once. I will provide all the correct information needed. I think the units deserve that...

[lamarhooten]

I got say that this thread has made me go and lable all my variations of these patches correct. I have changed the lables around on these more than once! A new 'Trading Post' article would be great and might get the info out there for the next reference books that come out.

[cavcon]

I'm glad it helped. I did do a trading post article back in the 90's but maybe a new one is in order. I'm just not a writer but I can try again. Thanks

[lamarhooten]

I'm glad it helped. I did do a trading post article back in the 90's but maybe a new one is in order. I'm just not a writer but I can try again. Thanks

I am aware of the previous article and have used it to try and get the point across as to the differences or lack of such. Not much of a writer myself as you see! A new or updated article would help the new collector or ones new to ASMIC and with all the articles we have had with disproving some of the old and 'not questioned' ids on afew patches, a new article like this would be very timely. Always good to get rid of the "this book says its this, no questions' kind of answers we all hear. Just within the last three months I have been told that a 442nd Anti-tank Bn. in a collectors collection was a real, cut edge, white back patch. Its a real patch, just not millitary related!

[Dan D]

I am researching a friends father's WWII history and one of the artifacts in his box was German made 17th Cavalry Recon Squadron patch (bullet shaped)

 

[Dan D]

and reverse

[Dan D]

My understanding is these are a desirable patch!

[tredhed2]

My understanding is these are a desirable patch!

You better believe it!

[Kadet]

Interesting topic and patch examples! This is a named Ike in my collection. Not really my area of interest/expertise but it is a nice solid jacket, and I think the DUIs are German made