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duarte1223
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Are there any websites or books out there where you can pin down a victory medal to a certain unit? I'm looking to get some, and I'd like to be able to attribute them to the division they went with.

 

Thanks!

Adam

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Are there any websites or books out there where you can pin down a victory medal to a certain unit? I'm looking to get some, and I'd like to be able to attribute them to the division they went with.

 

Thanks!

Adam

 

Yes, possibly. Hayes Otouplaik's WW1 Collector's Handbook has bar combinations for all the overseas divisions, but not for most other units.

 

What do you have to research? Do be aware that several units may have the same combos.

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The one I'm looking for has a Somme-Offensive clasp. I'm sure this one has plenty of units attributed to it though. Do you know where I can get a copy of the WW1 Collector's Handbook?

 

Adam

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IMPERIAL QUEST

Hi Adam,

 

There were many units and divisions entitled to the same combination, so unless it is a very rare clasp, or the maximum allowable of clasps are on the ribbon (5, I believe for the common ground pounder) it will be difficult to say with absolute certainty, what division it came from. The examples I have seen with the SOMME-OFFENSIVE have also had the YPRES-LYS, and DEFENSIVE SECTOR as well.

 

I am awaiting delivery of a 5 clasp VM with Silver Citation Star affixed above the bars w/ corresponding ribbon bar (CAMPANGE MARNE,ST.MIHELE,AISNE MARNE,MEUSE ARGONNE,DEFENSE SECTOR). It was purchased from an e-bay seller in Michigan, and I was told that it came from an estate sale in the same state, so I will start with units raised from Michigan to review their battle honors. All Army units have web-sites and most (if not all) give a lineage or battle honors listing, so narrowing it down as much as possible really helps get you started.

 

There are a few sites that will give you a listing of beginning, and ending campaign dates used to determine eligibility - but not any unit/division listions that I have seen. I have however, seen some e-bay sellers atate that a certain combination that they were selling was "only" awarded to a certain division. So, if what they are saying is true, they may be able to give you a source for the information. Sorry to babble, I just really enjoy talking about the VM - the US version is my favorite. :)

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Garth Thompson
Are there any websites or books out there where you can pin down a victory medal to a certain unit? I'm looking to get some, and I'd like to be able to attribute them to the division they went with.

 

Thanks!

Adam

Adam,

Here are a couple of scans from an old publication that might help you. The combinations of bars are for divisional entitlement. A man might join a unit late or have been wounded and not present for a battle consequently would not be entitled to the full divisional bar combination.

Navy medals have only one bar but I have seen a few where the man was entitled to two and wore both on his Victory medal.

Garth

post-83-1182191892.jpg

post-83-1182191909.jpg

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"The Interallied Victory Medals of World War I" by Alexander Laslo has a pretty decent listing of who was entitled to what. I'll check my copy to see if I can find anything on units that were only entitled to the Somme Offensive clasp.

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Hello,

 

I have a U.S. Government publication called Battle Participation in France, Belgium and Italy issued May 15th,1920, by the War Department. It has two parts. In the first each division is broken down into brigades and battalions and the battles are listed for each of these units. In the second part, each battle is listed and the dates each unit was in battle is given. It updates some of the units. For example, the 7th Division is credited with two battle bars. One is for the defensive sector and the other is for Meuse-Argonne. Some of the other divisions also have updates.

 

The units shown for the Somme-Offensive clasp are the 17th Pursuit Squadron , 148th Pursuit Squadron,27th Division, 30th Div., and 33rd Div.

 

I have this grouping from a WW1 vet from my hometown. He was in a machine gun battalion in the 7th. Notice is Victory medal contains two bars.

 

Regards, Jerry

 

post-213-1182200458.jpg

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Keep in mind, as I was repeatedly told then, that many soldiers did not earn all of the bars their unit was entitled to, due to illness, wounds, special training and other reasons most of the members of a particular unit did not stay with the unit the entire time they were overseas. So my medal with Somme Offensive bar only could have been from someone who was in a unit entitled to more bars than that but were only present for that particular action. Also, many replacements joined the older Divisions and other units later and may have only earned one or two bars while the Division got 4 or 5.

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"The Interallied Victory Medals of World War I" is less comprehensive than I thought, at least as far as units smaller than a division are concerned. That said, the 27th, 30th, 33rd and 80th divisions were entitled to the Somme Offensive clasp.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is a 4-bar Victory I picked up a couple of weeks ago. It's neat in that the ribbon bar was pinned to the medal. I have no idea what unit with this bar combination on it; OISE-AISNE, ST. MIHIEL, MEUSE ARGONNE and DEFENSIVE SECTOR-Mark

post-527-1183068438.jpg

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TBMflyer said:

Here is a 4-bar Victory I picked up a couple of weeks ago. It's neat in that the ribbon bar was pinned to the medal. I have no idea what unit with this bar combination on it; OISE-AISNE, ST. MIHIEL, MEUSE ARGONNE and DEFENSIVE SECTOR-Mark

 

This combination of clasps is not standard to any US division. Only the 28th, 32nd and 37th divisions were authorized the Oise-Aisne clasp, and none of them were authorized the St. Mihiel clasp. As the above divisions were generally engaged from 18 August to 11 November 1918, and the St. Mihiel campaign only lasted form 12-16 November, 1918, and the two battlefields are quite a distance apart, it's unlikely both of these clasps belong on this medal ribbon.

 

Bluejacket

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Bluejacket, thanks for the information. I'm not a WWI collector and I really couldn't find any information regarding a unit. Since the ribbon has the 4 stars and has been on the medal for what looks like a long time, I'm going to put it in the collection and file it in the 'anomaly' section! Thanks again, Mark.

TBMFlyer

 

This combination of clasps is not standard to any US division. Only the 28th, 32nd and 37th divisions were authorized the Oise-Aisne clasp, and none of them were authorized the St. Mihiel clasp. As the above divisions were generally engaged from 18 August to 11 November 1918, and the St. Mihiel campaign only lasted form 12-16 November, 1918, and the two battlefields are quite a distance apart, it's unlikely both of these clasps belong on this medal ribbon.

Bluejacket

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  • 1 year later...

What WW1 Victory Medal bars would be appropriate for an American Expeditionary Force Marine in the 2nd Division?

 

Also, for a silver star award to this same Marine, what would be used to denote multipe awards - stars or oak leaf clusters? And if oak leaf clustes are appropriate, would they have to be the early very large ones, or what?

 

Thanks, Erich

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What WW1 Victory Medal bars would be appropriate for an American Expeditionary Force Marine in the 2nd Division?

Thanks, Erich

 

1. Aisne

2. Aisne - Marne

3. St. Mihiel

4. Meuse - Argonne

5. Defensive Sector

 

OR a combination of these.

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Oh, I guess that means the division qualified for all those bars, but the individual soldier did not necessarily. I would have to see his miltary records to see which bars he had, right???

 

Erich

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OR a combination of these.

 

Darrell is absolutely correct. It is somewhat of a myth that Victory Medal Bars were awarded based on the Division's service. In actuality, Victory Medal bars were awarded individually for service in the various engagements. A soldier would only have all the Division's bars if he were with the unit during every engagement.

 

Frequently, soldiers were wounded, missed various battles, and rejoined their units after they recuperated. Other times, replacements came in later, missing the earlier engagements.

 

On the other hand some specialty troops, like Medical Corps or Engineers, were quite literally detailed "all over the place", and participated in a lot of different actions. This made for some unusual Victory Medal bar combinations

 

Chris

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  • 8 months later...

Hi everyone,

 

My grandfather recently gave me some items that once belonged to a distant relative, about whom I know very little. Among them is this WWI victory medal with three clasps: Overseas, Verdun, and St. Mihiel. There are also four bronze service stars - two smaller than the others - and two ribbons. I am a novice at militaria, and would appreciate your expert assistance!

 

a) I can find no record of an official Verdun clasp - does anyone know what is up with this?

 

B) I know the rainbow ribbon goes with the victory medal, but I can't seem to find anything about the other ribbon.

 

c) Is there any meaning to the different sized service stars?

 

Of course, anything else you could tell me about them would be appreciated.

post-6557-1242491239.jpg

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All three bars are copies. The stars are not properly worn on the full-size medal, but should be on the ribbon bar. The stars are privately made versions, so he just bought two sizes.

 

The second ribbon is the American Legion membership medal ribbon.

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Rachael,

 

As you have discovered, there was no official "Verdun" battle clasp for the WW1 victory medal. However, many insignia dealers made their living selling to veterans at VFW, 40/8, American Legion, Veteran parades, etc in the decades after WW1.

 

Immediately after the war, there were still considerable stocks of original insignia, but as this became depleted, new and sometimes unofficial insignia was manufactured.

 

If the soldier had received a citation for gallantry, he was allowed to wear a small silver star on the Victory Medal ribbon bar. This silver citation star was often pinned to the ribbon of the actual medal.

 

I have seen many WW1 era victory medals with both campaign stars and clasps on the medal. Although not official, It appears that a good number of former Doughboys thought it appropriate to do so.

 

So even though your medal is not an official "as issued" Victory Medal, it certainly has great character, and was probably worn proudly at the legion hall, or VFW by your relative.

 

Chris

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Bluejacket

What hasn't been mentioned yet is that this example is a wire loop suspension variety, rather than the usual barrel style. The wire loop is generally accepted as the original type of loop used for the suspension, yet few were ever officially issued. In fact they are almost always seen, as in this example, appearing to have been pieced together with an oddly sewn ribbon, usually an odd pin bar, and with the unofficial bars that were made and sold to vets at American Legion conventions and such.

 

I've seen these on occasion over the years and all the planchets look very similar, without the eye appeal of the usual barrel version. I believe the original wire loop style was approved, and several medal makers began production, when the War Department, at the almost certain insistance of the Fine Arts Commission, ordered a change in style. This left the original finished planchets, without ribbons, and unuseable to the makers, thus they were sold to persons or companies who made the creative pieces we see today.

 

Considering the overall appearance of this medal, and it being paired with an American Legion ribbon bar, I would suggest it was sold to a vet at a convention and put together to suit his request, regardless of what he may have had on his official medal.

 

By the way, Rachaelvr, check the thickness of the medal at the 3:00 position. If it is an original wire loop it should be 3 mm thick at that point.

 

Bluejacket

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Thanks to all, I really appreciate the help. I will be doing some more digging in the family archives (ie, the several tubs of materials I've accumulated since people started handing the stuff over to me), and will post if I find anything interesting!

 

All the best,

 

RVR

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  • 5 weeks later...
IMPERIAL QUEST

Hopefully you medal guys will know something about this.

 

I have been wondering for some time about these bars, however, I have not found much in the way of help. I know that the Navy/Marines had an authorized version for WWI service, but not the Army (as far as I know). I am aware that there are several "unofficial" bars made during the 1930's-50's such as the Chateau Thierry bar and have seen them on 1940's period medal bars from George Studley. Is the Aviation bar one of these commemorative type pieces made for veterans of that specific branch or were they indeed authorized?

 

Thanks in advance.

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