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?EARLY USN OFFICERS VISOR?


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#1 navyman

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 09:10 AM

Hi,

      I bought this cap today and got it cheap due to the condition and missing chin strap. Is this a early navy visor hat from span am or before?

I have to clean the hat up and the insigina is sewn to the the hat and hat band.

hat.jpg

hat1.jpg

 



#2 navyman

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 09:11 AM

inside

hat2.jpg



#3 navyman

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 01:53 PM

Could this be the 1897 pattern?



#4 collectsmedals

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 05:16 PM

I have never seen a US visor with the wide medal band along the brim. That is more a European style. Suspect a European or Canadian cap with a USN badge.



#5 navyman

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 06:25 PM

I think it is in the 1897 regs, will have to see if I can find a copy of the plate



#6 navyman

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 06:45 PM

I think this is a plate from 1897 regs.

 

1905_034_011a.jpg



#7 Airman86

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 09:19 PM

Looks like you got number 7, which would probably be for a JO would be my guess. Great historical piece!

#8 navyman

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 10:12 PM

Yeah its a shame the center band is in rough shape. I may try and clean it up a bit by trimming the fray ends off. But for $80.00 I think I still did o.k.



#9 KurtA

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 12:07 PM

I'd sew another mohair band into it.  They're easy enough to find and it would really improve the appearance of the cap.  Great find - you never see these caps.



#10 navyman

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 12:44 PM

Yeah, I thought about restoring it. This is the first one I have seen. I would have to piece the band together because the insignia is a plied rite on

#11 Dave

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 07:27 AM

What an odd hat! I've never seen one before...I learned something new today!

 

Any idea how long they maintained the British-esque gold trim?



#12 navyman

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:32 PM

Dave,

              Yeah I never seen one until a friend call me about this one. I think the plate I posted was 1897 and don't know when they did away with this. I need to replace the band, the usn insignia is still pretty nice shape. I think I can restore it.



#13 sgtdorango

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:42 PM

Thats pretty awesome and not something you see everyday!...i wonder if you find a replacement chinstrap it might make the band look a little better and hide or hold down most of the fraying?....mike

#14 topdcnut

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:53 PM

This plate is in the 05 regs, is this style hat an every day thing not unlike the 43 change to grey? Would No 4and6,5and 7 and 8 and 9 be related? This was a time when Chiefs, Warrants and officers wore well worn every day caps on deck and in the hole, was this an effort to make an everyday/ battle type cap for officers? In the plates they do not seem to directly correlate to the O- rank structure?



#15 topdcnut

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:58 PM

This plate is in the 13 and 17 reg also and yet this is the first hat I have seen. Could they have been as unpopular as the slate grey uniform of 43? Cannot wait to see some pics posted!



#16 collectsmedals

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 05:49 PM

I stand corrected, nice find.

 

I have never seen a US visor with the wide medal band along the brim. That is more a European style. Suspect a European or Canadian cap with a USN badge.

 

 



#17 topdcnut

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 06:43 PM

All things considered that hat is not in real bad shape, I think for what I would consider how scarce it is.



#18 navyman

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 03:04 AM

Yeah it looks worse than it actually is.   The visor is a odder shape than the ww1 visor.



#19 US82Bravo

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 09:51 AM

Here is text from the 1913 Uniform Regulations, revised January 15, 1917, page 38, discussing the caps shown on Plate 11 -

 

scan0005 (800x418).jpg

 

Note the reference "For staff officers...".

 

Nice cap.

 

Larry



#20 navyman

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 01:28 PM

Thanks Larry for the info.



#21 topdcnut

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 04:16 PM

Did not get to the reading part, thanks Larry. I cannot find this hat before 1905 regs. I wonder how it felt to make Capt or Adm. get assigned as staff and loose your coveted scrambled eggs? I can only wonder why these hats are so scarce.



#22 navyman

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 04:39 PM

I wonder if they enforce the wearing of these hats? You think you would see more of them.



#23 topdcnut

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 05:09 PM

Hopefully some old staff photos will start popping up.



#24 29navy

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 05:25 PM

I think "Staff" refers to non-line officers.


Edited by 29navy, 23 December 2014 - 05:30 PM.


#25 US82Bravo

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 07:17 PM

 I cannot find this hat before 1905 regs. 

 

Herbert Booker has a copy of the 1886 Uniform Regulations on his 'Picasa' website.  This type of cap ornamentation is not shown in those regs.

 

The Naval History & Heritage Command website has the following information transcribed from the 1897 Uniform Regs :

 

CAP.

 


The cap for all officers shall be of dark navy-blue cloth, the diameter at the top to be one-half inch greater than that at the base, the quarters not less than 1 1/4 nor more than 1 ½ inches high, and of the same height in front and at the back. The seam around the top shall be made without a welt, and neatly stitched on each side. The band shall be 1 ½ inches wide with a welt one-eighth of an inch in diameter at the top and bottom. The bottom welt shall be one-eighth of an inch from the base of the cap. A band of lustrous black mohair braid, similar to that used for the trimmings of the service coat, shall be worn between upper and lower welts. The visors shall be of black patent leather, molded to shape and bound with the same. Those for rear admirals, commodores, captains, commanders, and officers of corresponding relative rank, shall be covered with blue cloth and embroidered as follows: Rear admirals and commodores, embroidered all around with oak leaves; staff officers of corresponding relative rank, a gold band, one-half inch wide, embroidered all around the edge; captains and commanders, embroidered along the front edge with oak leaves; staff officers of corresponding relative rank, a gold band, one-half inch wide, embroidered along front edge. All visors shall be green underneath, rounded and sloping downward not less than 20 nor more than 30 from the horizontal. The inside band shall be of leather, and shall extend from the base of the cap to within 1 inch of the top. The sweat lining shall be of morocco. Four black metal eyelets, two on each side, shall be placed above the band in the quarters for ventilation. A small-sized navy button shall be placed on each side beyond the ends of the visor, the eye of the button immediately above the lower welt. For all commissioned officers and naval cadets, a sliding chin strap of leather, faced with half-inch gold lace, with two gold-lace slides of the same width, shall be fastened over the buttons; for all other officers a similar chin strap one-quarter of an inch in width. When not used under the chin, the strap will be drawn between the buttons, resting on the upper edge of the visor.

 

 

I have not found an actual copy of the 1897 Regs to date. I would hope the NHHC transcription is accurate.

 

 

Larry




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