Bayonets in US Forces in England 12-25-1943 and More

[bayonetman]

A participant in another Forum (and possibly this one under a different name) was kind enough to send me a section of the Ordnance Report dated December 25, 1943 for US Forces in the U.K. I have created a table for the Edged section of the report and am posting it here for the information of all those interested. Some interesting numbers, I have no information other than what is shown here. It does appear that the M1 bayonet had arrived but had not yet been issued as of that date.

[HoustonTx]

So I wonder if that means the troops were carrying the cut-down bayonets in more numbers rather than the M1 bayonet when they crossed the channel. I'd like to know the numbers of M1 bayonets actually issued during the time leading up to the invasion.

[thetrenchman1918]

the 1917 bayonet's must be for the trench gun at this point? I would assume troops were not training with model 1917 rifles in England but stateside only at this point in the war

 

also the cut down bayonet- is that not just a regular m1 bayonet by government specs? model of 1905 would be full length 16 inch by my understanding

[RustyCanteen]

Hi Gary,

 

Thanks for posting. I find it interesting there are more bayonets than scabbards? I would have expected just the opposite since the scabbard is easily damaged.

[gunbarrel]

So I wonder if that means the troops were carrying the cut-down bayonets in more numbers rather than the M1 bayonet when they crossed the channel. I'd like to know the numbers of M1 bayonets actually issued during the time leading up to the invasion.

Just curious--why do you want to know that? Well, it doesn't matter, as you'll never find out from Ordnance reports since the Army also called the cut-down bayonets "M1." And there weren't any inquiring minds keeping track at the time :-)))

 

From Bayonetman (aka Gary Cunningham)'s Bayonet Points 2:

 

Bayonets with a 10-inch blade were provided to various units and boards for testing in early 1943 as the Bayonet, M1905E1. Opinions from the using services were nearly unanimous in favor of the shorter blade, and it was also realized that manufacturing the shorter blade would save a large amount of steel. Accordingly, the Bayonet M1 was adopted on March 1, 1943.

 

Although I generally don't like using incorrect nomenclature, at times a "collector designation" does prove useful. Collectors use the term M1905E1 for all those M1905 16 inch blade bayonets shortened to 10 inch blades. However, officially the terminology of M1905E1 was applied only to those bayonets used in the tests, not to the bayonets that were shortened subsequently to 10-inch blade length. But since there is no better name for the shortened bayonets, and since the term M1905E1 is consistently used for this type, I don't feel that it causes any problems.

 

It must be remembered that when the shortened bayonet entered military inventory, it did so as a Bayonet, M1. The army made no attempt to differentiate between the M1 bayonet and the shortened M1905s, and they were issued indiscriminately. As early as the October 1943 issue of TM9-2200 (Small Arms, Light Field Mortars, and 20-mm Aircraft Guns) the shortened version was used in the illustration of the Bayonet M1. In fact, almost every other manual such as the June 1944 Handbook of Ordnance Material and the April 1949 edition of TM 9-2200 (by then titled Small Arms Material and Associated Equipment) use the M1905E1 for their illustration of the M1 bayonet.

 

Some collectors feel that the shortened bayonet did not enter service until too late to see much active combat in WW2, and that the regular M1 bayonet is the most correct one to go with their M1 or M1903 series rifle. But the M1905E1 entered Ordnance channels in September 1943 and by the end of 1943 over 225,000 had entered the supply system, so the shortened type is certainly appropriate for any 1944 or later rifle.

[bayonetman]

the 1917 bayonet's must be for the trench gun at this point? I would assume troops were not training with model 1917 rifles in England but stateside only at this point in the war

 

also the cut down bayonet- is that not just a regular m1 bayonet by government specs? model of 1905 would be full length 16 inch by my understanding

The copy I was going by lists Shotguns (all models) as 4,607 in theater, 2,375 in depot, 2 in Office of Strategic Services and 43 salvaged.

[gunbarrel]

the 1917 bayonet's must be for the trench gun at this point? I would assume troops were not training with model 1917 rifles in England but stateside only at this point in the war

 

Notice how few are listed. Why take any at all, since the British Home Guard were issued P-14's, which takes an identical bayonet. The Brits must have had tens of thousands of them!

[Johan Willaert]

 

Notice how few are listed. Why take any at all, since the British Home Guard were issued P-14's, which takes an identical bayonet. The Brits must have had tens of thousands of them!

 

Home Guard also received a high number of Lend Lease M1917 rifles from the US...

[gunbarrel]

 

Home Guard also received a high number of Lend Lease M1917 rifles from the US...

 

That's right! They painted red bands on them to indicate .30-06, instead of .303 cartridge. Thanks for reminding us, Johan.

 

[Johan Willaert]

 

That's right! They painted red bands on them to indicate .30-06, instead of .303 cartridge. Thanks for reminding us, Johan.

 

 

Indeed, here's a picture of said red band marked 30-06 on my April 1918 Winchester M1917

[ccyooper]

They converted some of the bayonets too. I wonder where these fall into the list? Remington, 1918 dated (uggh!), cut down guard, lead filled lug, numbered 67. Scabbard marked inside belt loop; war dept broad arrow ^ over 36 over W. S. Ltd ^ 1941. I'll post more details in the converted knife thread.

[bayonetman]

Some added information from the same source as the previous:

 

Ordnance Losses 20 January 1944 to 29 March 1944 by 5th Army

 

Bayonet, M1905 and M1917 - 1,202 (as the list does not show any 1917 rifles or any shotguns lost, I bet it was all M1905)

Bayonet, M1 - 2,397

Knife, Trench, M1 and M3 - 2,335 (the Knife, M1 is actually the M1918 Mark 1)

 

Not edged, but just to help round out some of the numbers:

 

M1 Rifle - 1,241

1903-1903A1 Rifle - 625

1903A4 Sniper Rifle - 26

M1 Carbine - 1,329

M1A1 Carbine - 18

1911-1911A1 Pistol - 1,283