VN USAF AIR CREW WING

[BEAST]

This is a pair of two inch aircrew wings that were given to me by a friend. He enlisted into the USAF in the late 1960's (after receiving a draft notice) and served as photography instructor raising to the rank of Sergeant (E-4). He spent the war stateside except for a 30 day TDY to Vietnam. There he spent almost everyday over Hanoi or Haiphong Harbor. He flew as crewman on recon aircraft such as the RF-4. According to him, he was one fo the few enlisted to fly as a crewman in a fighter reconaissance jet. During this 30 day tour, his aircraft was the first in to photograph the "before" or the last aircraft to photograph the "after". Although not as sexy as some of the WWII wings, I think these have an elegance all their own.

 

 

 

 

[John Cooper]

Thanks for posting. I for one think the history behind your wing is very interesting!

 

John

[Gary Cain]

I agree with John on this one. If he is not embellishing his story his service would be very rare as I can't think of a single enlisted man ever to have flown operationally in an RF-4C, the only aircraft possible as all the others were single seaters. TDY tours were very common for Thud pilots during Rolling Thunder because they didn't have enough pilots for those berths. The photo recon squadrons on the other hand were all volunteers(and of exceptional bravery!) and as there was a single squadron per air base they had little problem filling positions.

 

If it can be documented it would be quite extraordinary.

 

Cheers

Gary

[BEAST]

John, Gary,

Thanks for the comments. Unfortunetly I don't have any other evidence and he passed away last year. His service records don't reflect VN service and his only assignment is the 2727th AMSq. Hill AF Base from 1966-1970. I did see his flight helmet and took a photo of it. I just posted it at: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry160212

 

Maybe if I got his complete records as opposed to what is released with an FOIA, it might shed more light on the mystery!

[Gary Cain]

Did he actually say why he was flying backseat on the missions? The cameras are automatic and controlled by the WSO(basically flipping a series of switches) I don't remember the details but if memory serves the RF-4C had three cameras that were used on missions all mounted in the nose. They were I believe a pair of KS-87s and a KA-56. But I could be very wrong on those model numbers.

 

 

 

Cheers

Gary

John, Gary,

Thanks for the comments. Unfortunetly I don't have any other evidence and he passed away last year. His service records don't reflect VN service and his only assignment is the 2727th AMSq. Hill AF Base from 1966-1970. I did see his flight helmet and took a photo of it. I just posted it at: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry160212

 

Maybe if I got his complete records as opposed to what is released with an FOIA, it might shed more light on the mystery!

[BEAST]

Did he actually say why he was flying backseat on the missions? The cameras are automatic and controlled by the WSO(basically flipping a series of switches) I don't remember the details but if memory serves the RF-4C had three cameras that were used on missions all mounted in the nose. They were I believe a pair of KS-87s and a KA-56. But I could be very wrong on those model numbers.

Cheers

Gary

 

Hi Gary,

Yes, he did say that he flew the missions over North Vietnam. On his flight helmet he has both markings for a phantom and a RF-101 Voodoo. Unfortunetly I don't have access to his helmet anymore, just the photo that I took many years ago.

[Gary Cain]

Hi Beast,

 

I am sorry to say it but I think he may have been embellishing. There is absolutely no way he would have been in a RF-101. As an E4 he would have been working in a photo interpretation job at a base. To be honest by VN there were very few enlisted positions in fligt crew positions. He would have had to have been at lteast an E6 think to be on a an aircraft in a flight engineer status. I think they may have had E5s on gunships loading ammunition but I could very well be wrong on hat score. But a corporal.....even in WWII (when they really neded flight crew)I can't recall E4s as flight crew.

 

 

 

Gary

Hi Gary,

Yes, he did say that he flew the missions over North Vietnam. On his flight helmet he has both markings for a phantom and a RF-101 Voodoo. Unfortunetly I don't have access to his helmet anymore, just the photo that I took many years ago.

[pfrost]

Maybe he was an E6 but got bumped down? I seem to recall a friend of the family who was sharp as a tack but had a mean drinking problem. As I recall, he was a radar guy on one of the aircrews in VN, but would get in trouble for drinking. But since he was smart, they never took him down far enough so that he couldn't do his job. I has a kid when I heard this story, so I may be way off, but I recall him telling us that he was called in for Captain's Mast for being drunk and disorderly, the Captain said I have 2 questions for you, did you do it and when is your next mission? He said yes and tomorrow night. The captain said you are demoted effective now and will be promoted again tomorrow afternoon. Likely just a tall tale, but it seemed funny when I was a kid. The wings are nice.

 

Patrick

[Mr-X]

Hi Beast,

 

As an E4 he would have been working in a photo interpretation job at a base. To be honest by VN there were very few enlisted positions in fligt crew positions. He would have had to have been at lteast an E6 think to be on a an aircraft in a flight engineer status. I think they may have had E5s on gunships loading ammunition but I could very well be wrong on hat score. But a corporal.....even in WWII (when they really neded flight crew)I can't recall E4s as flight crew.

Gary

 

Well the guy did have a flight helmet..... so maybe the story is OK.

[BEAST]

Hmm, I don't think he was embellishing, but now I need to find more evidence! I have been trying to reach his brother and see if he has any photos of my friend's time in the service. That might help.

 

From the FOIA request, I know that he went to basic on 14 Apr 66 and on 1 Jun 1966 he was assigned as an APR (apprentice?) Instructor Photo (9DD). On 1 Jan 1968 He was assigned as an Optical Instructor Specl 7FM. His DAFSC is a 23550. He was released from active duty on 13 October 1970 with the highest rank held being a SGT, E-4.

 

That's the documentation. What I have on hand is a pair of flight crew wings, a photo of his flight helmet and what he told me about 25 years ago. Now I am happy with the story, but if I was trying to sell these, I can definetly see where you would "buy the wings, not the story"! So it looks like I need to track down some more evidence!

 

Ahhh, another one of history's mysteries!

[JBFloyd]

I believe the 2727th was an Air Munitions Squadron. They would have had photo guys to operate the high-speed cameras to record the tests they ran on rocket/missile motors. Without obvious experience in reconnaissance cameras, it's hard to see why he would have been plucked from the crowd to fly RF-4s. The recce squadrons had camera specialists assigned who could have done the job. As mentioned, he would have had no real function on board (in fact, he would have been dead weight).

 

Any optical problems were solved after the mission, and the camera manufacturers would have provided engineers to solve those. My special projects photo interpreters (432nd Reconnaissnace Technical Squadron, Udorn) were periodically called upon to plot photo frames to help figure out where the camera was actually shooting, but that data went back to the camera and computer guys so they could calibrate their equipment (or the WSO got beaten up for being unable to read a map or his watch).

 

Stranger things happened, but it sounds like a little embroidery is involved.

[BEAST]

I believe the 2727th was an Air Munitions Squadron. They would have had photo guys to operate the high-speed cameras to record the tests they ran on rocket/missile motors. Without obvious experience in reconnaissance cameras, it's hard to see why he would have been plucked from the crowd to fly RF-4s. The recce squadrons had camera specialists assigned who could have done the job. As mentioned, he would have had no real function on board (in fact, he would have been dead weight).

 

Any optical problems were solved after the mission, and the camera manufacturers would have provided engineers to solve those. My special projects photo interpreters (432nd Reconnaissnace Technical Squadron, Udorn) were periodically called upon to plot photo frames to help figure out where the camera was actually shooting, but that data went back to the camera and computer guys so they could calibrate their equipment (or the WSO got beaten up for being unable to read a map or his watch).

 

Stranger things happened, but it sounds like a little embroidery is involved.

 

Jeff,

Thanks for the info about the 2727th as that fits in with his stories about his work. But one question remains, why would he have his own flight helmet? A little background on him, he was my boss and I worked for him for about three years. He didn't speak much about his military service and never really tried to impress me (or anyone else) with his "there I was" stories.

 

If he was embellishing, then all bets are off. But if he was being sincere, then why, with his AFSC, would he have his own flight helmet? Although it is a poor photo, you can see his name on the front. As I said before, I need to find more evidence to back the story, but knowing him, I tend to believe him.

 

I appreciate everyone's input as I never thought about the story behind the wings as I never had a reason not to believe him. The more questions that are asked the more we learn!

[JBFloyd]

I suspect we'll never know the precise details of all of this, but I'd be looking for several pieces of paper:

 

1. Travel orders sending him to Vietnam

2. Travel voucher, which would have paid his expenses for his trip

3. Aeronautical orders, placing him on flight status

4. Flight records -- because somebody recorded flight time and crew names

5. Records that he qualified for the wings (normally this would have required assignment to an operations specialty involving flight [flight engineer, loadmaster, gunner, etc] and would not be awarded to a passenger).

 

The helmet is interesting. The fact that it carries silhouettes of two aircraft types indicates that the owner flew both types [the BIG problem here is that the RF-101 is a single-seater, so you were either the pilot or you weren't there]. If the story holds water, it is most likely that he would have been given an extra helmet from the life support shop and the decorations may have had no connection to him at all.

 

Since this man is not around to fill in the gaps, we owe him the courtesy of not beating him up posthumously. However, if this helmet were offered to me with this background, I'd want some harder evidence before investing my money. If we're too skeptical and the story is accurate, it's a very scarce bit of memorabilia.

[BEAST]

I suspect we'll never know the precise details of all of this, but I'd be looking for several pieces of paper:

 

1. Travel orders sending him to Vietnam

2. Travel voucher, which would have paid his expenses for his trip

3. Aeronautical orders, placing him on flight status

4. Flight records -- because somebody recorded flight time and crew names

5. Records that he qualified for the wings (normally this would have required assignment to an operations specialty involving flight [flight engineer, loadmaster, gunner, etc] and would not be awarded to a passenger).

 

The helmet is interesting. The fact that it carries silhouettes of two aircraft types indicates that the owner flew both types [the BIG problem here is that the RF-101 is a single-seater, so you were either the pilot or you weren't there]. If the story holds water, it is most likely that he would have been given an extra helmet from the life support shop and the decorations may have had no connection to him at all.

 

Since this man is not around to fill in the gaps, we owe him the courtesy of not beating him up posthumously. However, if this helmet were offered to me with this background, I'd want some harder evidence before investing my money. If we're too skeptical and the story is accurate, it's a very scarce bit of memorabilia.

 

 

Jeff,

Thanks for the ideas on the paper work! Man, there are so many questions that I wished I would have asked him! I'm just glad I took some photos of the helmet as that provides a few more clues. Another reason to write down or have the vet record his recollections.

 

One thought one the RF-101. Were there two-seater models (B/F I think) that were converted to Recon or assigned to the recon units?

[JBFloyd]

That's a very good question. I've not found a reference to a two-seater RF-101 variant. It would have been far easier to make a trainer by modifying a 2-seat interceptor to carry the electronics of an RF-101, rather than extend an RF fuselage to fit another pilot. Someone far more knowledgeable in aircaft types may be able to fill in the gaps here.

[Lee Ragan]

Hi Beast,

 

I am sorry to say it but I think he may have been embellishing. There is absolutely no way he would have been in a RF-101. As an E4 he would have been working in a photo interpretation job at a base. To be honest by VN there were very few enlisted positions in fligt crew positions. He would have had to have been at lteast an E6 think to be on a an aircraft in a flight engineer status. I think they may have had E5s on gunships loading ammunition but I could very well be wrong on hat score. But a corporal.....even in WWII (when they really neded flight crew)I can't recall E4s as flight crew.

Gary

John Levitow (MOH), was an E-3 and a loadmaster on an AC-47 when he earned his MOH. Yes, some lower ranking airmen were on flight status in the mid to late 60's. There are also several E-4's who were pararescue jumpers in Vietnam. I believe that was Pitsenbargers rank when he earned the Air Force Cross (later up graded to MOH), in spring 1966. PJ's held aircrew status.

I do question this fellow being a photog flying in F-4s tho. Just don't really ring true. My 2 cents worth.

[Gary Cain]

The F101B was a two seat all weather interceptor that was used by Air Defence Command. They were never converted to RF101 duties.

That's a very good question. I've not found a reference to a two-seater RF-101 variant. It would have been far easier to make a trainer by modifying a 2-seat interceptor to carry the electronics of an RF-101, rather than extend an RF fuselage to fit another pilot. Someone far more knowledgeable in aircaft types may be able to fill in the gaps here.

[Gary Cain]

Thanks for the info Lee. I knew they were rare I just didn't know how rare. I am surprised by the E-4 PJ's though.

 

 

Cheers

Gary

John Levitow (MOH), was an E-3 and a loadmaster on an AC-47 when he earned his MOH. Yes, some lower ranking airmen were on flight status in the mid to late 60's. There are also several E-4's who were pararescue jumpers in Vietnam. I believe that was Pitsenbargers rank when he earned the Air Force Cross (later up graded to MOH), in spring 1966. PJ's held aircrew status.

I do question this fellow being a photog flying in F-4s tho. Just don't really ring true. My 2 cents worth.

[Guest RedLeg O4]

John, Gary,

Thanks for the comments. Unfortunetly I don't have any other evidence and he passed away last year. His service records don't reflect VN service and his only assignment is the 2727th AMSq. Hill AF Base from 1966-1970. I did see his flight helmet and took a photo of it. I just posted it at: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;#entry160212

 

Maybe if I got his complete records as opposed to what is released with an FOIA, it might shed more light on the mystery!

 

First let me say that I'm not trying to disparage your friend, but I was assigned to the 2728th Airmunitions Squadron at Hill AFB from July 1964 to February 1966 and have a pretty good ideal of what took place there during the period of time I was there. Both the 2727th and 2728th were assigned to the 2705th Airmunitions Wing. While the 2727th was actually the 2727th Airmunitions Test Squadron and unless my memory has failed me I don't remember it having any enlisted aircrew members assigned to it and we all lived in the same barracks so I was pretty familiar with who was in the Squadron.

 

As for photo recon in Vietnam, I know that during my time at Bien Hoa the RF-101 and RB-57 were the primary aircraft charged with taking photos. The "101" had a single pilot and the "57" had a pilot and navigator. This changed sometime in 1966 when the first RF-4Cs arrived in-country and were based at Tan Sun Nhut. What I know about the RF-4C is that it carries three cameras and unlike the RF-101 has a pilot and navigator. As a sidenote

 

In fact, while stationed at Eglin AFB in 1967 I actually got to know a flying enlisted photographer whose job was to fly as a "Backseater" in an F-100F and take movies of munitions and weapons systems as they were being tested on the ranges around Eglin.

 

Tom

[militarymodels]

It's always great to hear from someone who actually "been there, done that". Thanks Tom for sharing!

 

 

First let me say that I'm not trying to disparage your friend, but I was assigned to the 2728th Airmunitions Squadron at Hill AFB from July 1964 to February 1966 and have a pretty good ideal of what took place there during the period of time I was there. Both the 2727th and 2728th were assigned to the 2705th Airmunitions Wing. While the 2727th was actually the 2727th Airmunitions Test Squadron and unless my memory has failed me I don't remember it having any enlisted aircrew members assigned to it and we all lived in the same barracks so I was pretty familiar with who was in the Squadron.

 

As for photo recon in Vietnam, I know that during my time at Bien Hoa the RF-101 and RB-57 were the primary aircraft charged with taking photos. The "101" had a single pilot and the "57" had a pilot and navigator. This changed sometime in 1966 when the first RF-4Cs arrived in-country and were based at Tan Sun Nhut. What I know about the RF-4C is that it carries three cameras and unlike the RF-101 has a pilot and navigator. As a sidenote

 

In fact, while stationed at Eglin AFB in 1967 I actually got to know a flying enlisted photographer whose job was to fly as a "Backseater" in an F-100F and take movies of munitions and weapons systems as they were being tested on the ranges around Eglin.

 

Tom

[BEAST]

Tom,

Thanks for posting your information! Let me see if I am clear on this in my military mind. The Air Force did have enlisted flying photographers, so that part of his story could be correct. When you were at Hill, which is shortly before he arrives, the 2727th did not have any flying enlisted crew members, let alone flying photographers. So I need more information about his work at Hill. Did he just do all of the munition footage while on the ground or what? And it looks less likely that he was assigned to a RF-101.

 

Thanks again for your post. It adds more pieces to this puzzle.

 

BTW, I have contacted his family, and spoke with his sister-in-law, but I don't think that I am going to find more information there. At least not yet. My friend only passed away last fall and I think it is still quite a shock to them.

[BEAST]

For those of you following this string, here is a site on A1C Darryl Winters: http://www.virtualwall.org/dw/WintersDG01a.htm

 

A1C Winters was a combat cameraman who flew in F-100F among other aircraft. He was killed in action on July 19, 1966 while flying a mission. He was the first Air Force combat photographer to be killed in Vietnam. His body was not recovered. He remains a hero and role model for all Air Force enlisted men and women and he lives on with the "Darryl G. Winters Award" given yearly by the Air Force to its most outstanding AAVS member.

 

So here we have a combat photographer, a crew member, who flew in fighters, that had not even attained the rank of E-4. I think this add credence to part of my friends story. Now if we can just figure out about the RF-101!

[Gary Cain]

Amazingly enough I had a RF-4C pilot in my shop yesterday and this subject came up. In his words yes he may have flown in South Vietnam but there was no way he flew up North. His words were to the effect that because of the high threat environment he would not have been dead weight he would probably have got the aircraft shot down. He stated that the WSO was responsible for the RHAW gear and ran the jamming equipment that kept them alive as well as flipping the camera switches. Additionally there was a huge difference in the amount of teamwork needed in that environment as opposed to what they could get away with in the South.

[Guest RedLeg O4]

For those of you following this string, here is a site on A1C Darryl Winters: http://www.virtualwall.org/dw/WintersDG01a.htm

 

A1C Winters was a combat cameraman who flew in F-100F among other aircraft. He was killed in action on July 19, 1966 while flying a mission. He was the first Air Force combat photographer to be killed in Vietnam. His body was not recovered. He remains a hero and role model for all Air Force enlisted men and women and he lives on with the "Darryl G. Winters Award" given yearly by the Air Force to its most outstanding AAVS member.

 

So here we have a combat photographer, a crew member, who flew in fighters, that had not even attained the rank of E-4. I think this add credence to part of my friends story. Now if we can just figure out about the RF-101!

 

Actually A1C Winters was an E-4. I was at Bien Hoa during the same time he was there and we were two of many E-4s assigned to the base. At that time Bien Hoa was an F-100 base with three F-100D squadrons with several F-100Fs assigned to them. Many times depending on the nature of the mission it was not unusual to see an F-100F accompany the F-100Ds. In its photo configuration it carried a centerline camera pod and a backseater photographer.

 

As for the RF-101C, we would have transient recce birds come through Bien Hoa either to drop off film or in one case because of battle damage. As a sidenote, airtoaircombat.com states that the F-101C was the only Voodoo to operate in Vietnam until it was replaced by the RF-4C starting in 1965. However in 1971, 22 F-101Bs were converted to RF-101Bs and assigned to the 192d TRS of the Nevada ANG. Hopefully, this clears up the F-101 mystery. C models were single seaters flown in Vietnam and the recce B models were two seaters not flown in Vietnam.

 

Tom