Foreign made or modified navy jumper

[subsystem4]

I picked this jumper off of ebay. The seller listed it as a British navy jumper that had be used by a us sailor. It clearly isn't and the sailor who owned it from what my research shows never went to the ETO. In fact his mine sweeper spent time in the Chesapeake and then in the pacific at Iwo Jima and post war mine sweeping ops in Japan. I suspect this is a standard undress white jumper that blue cuffs and collar were added to while the sailor was in Japan. The buttons on the cuffs are standard navy buttons, probably from a dress blue jumper.

What do you guys think?

 

[subsystem4]

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[RustyCanteen]

Boy, that is different!

 

 

At first glance, it does look like it could be a standard late war set of whites they have been altered. Maybe a couple of photos showing the inner seams could confirm that. It's interesting, especially since the wear out date for the dress whites ended in 1942! The original issue comprised of blue wool which did not hold up to laundering of course, and in 1937 the blue collar and cuffs changed to twill. I believe the actual authorization was in 1936, but it didn't change at the clothing factory until spring 1937 IIRC. Issue ended in 1940 as I recall, so this is most unusual.

 

It could be Asian tailored as you theorized. The course weave reminds me of some of the IJN stuff (but of course the color is considerably lighter).

[sigsaye]

I have a hard time with this jumper. My first question is why? What reason would any one have to do this? The color of the cuffs and color are wrong. The way the blue collar is added to the jumper is wrong, when would this have been done? Yo me, this looks like some one took a standard undress white jumper and added he collar and cuffs to make a costume. I have seen undress whites converted to dress whites, nor do uncommon. But this just seems off

[RustyCanteen]

Sigs,

 

I know, it is weird in that respect. But I think it was probably made to 'dress' up for liberty; albeit totally against regulation! Obviously not something that would have been worn off the quarterdeck when going ashore; someone would have made him strip that right off if they were even remotely interested in enforcing dress. I sure wouldn't want to have come face to face with an officer or SP wearing it! I also considered costume use, but some of the details make me believe this was intended for wear, and that the alterations were made in Japan.

 

I'm kinda liking it; it's weird, it shouldn't exist, but still..I think it has a chance as a one-off. That said, I fully understand that this is so unusual that there is almost no way to prove (short of a period photo of the guy) it isn't a costume.

 

RC

[subsystem4]

I took a min to compare the jumper to some of my other whites and it is as far as i can tell it is a modified undress white jumper. The trousers that came with it are standard WWII undress white trousers. The jumper is stamped on the inside in a couple places with the original owners name in the usual fashion and the rate and distinguishing mark are correct for him.

 

I suppose it could have been altered after the war and made into a costume. I hadn't really considered it. It just seems a little too well put together to me to be a costume but I am no expert.

 

I guess the world will never know and that's ok with me. For now it will remain in my collection as an interesting oddity.

 

If anybody has examples of custom/tailor made WWII dress white jumpers I'd love to see them just as a comparison of what else was being done and worn despite regs.

 

-Jay

[Garandomatic]

Maybe a wife, sweetheart, etc. thought that looked better when they wore it. How often do we see jumpers with the funky imaginary rate with the rocker on the sleeve that were homefront pieces?

 

I won a grouping and was kind of dumbfounded by the weirdness of everything, but it came with a picture or two and a letter, and if my 2+2=4 is correct, in my case, I think the jumper belonged to the woman whose friend or significant other was in the Navy and wrote to her.

[jguy1986]

Now that's an interesting thought, Garandomatic... What if this sailor's sweetheart took an extra set of his whites and fashioned them into a middy, maybe so they could go to a function in semi-matching outfits? A lot of the white middies we've all seen do have the blue collars, although that's arguably because they were more in-style in the 20's and 30's when the dress whites had a blue collar/cuffs, too.

[subsystem4]

Maybe a wife, sweetheart, etc. thought that looked better when they wore it. How often do we see jumpers with the funky imaginary rate with the rocker on the sleeve that were homefront pieces?

 

I won a grouping and was kind of dumbfounded by the weirdness of everything, but it came with a picture or two and a letter, and if my 2+2=4 is correct, in my case, I think the jumper belonged to the woman whose friend or significant other was in the Navy and wrote to her.

 

That's an angle I haven't even thought of. A wife or sweetheart could have made a middy out of one of his undress whites. Quite plausable.

[Bob Hudson]

Women's clothing patterned after military uniforms has been popular for over a century - in the first part of the 20th century the Navy "middy" blouse was especially popular with many variations, all which which looked sort of like, but not identical to, actual Navy uniforms. This this be one of those?

 

Here's some one of our forum members posted a while back:

 

[RustyCanteen]

That is definitely a possibility.

 

I still think it was likely altered in Japan, based on the material. I'll see about getting a photo to illustrate what I'm talking about.

[Garandomatic]

I really can't tell from the picture, but could the blue be US-issue Chambray?

[RustyCanteen]

I really can't tell from the picture, but could the blue be US-issue Chambray?

 

 

No, I don't think so.

 

I think it's plausible the blue material was sourced in Asia. The weave and the dye is kind of typical for the era. I'll dig out a picture to compare it a little later.

[subsystem4]

I really can't tell from the picture, but could the blue be US-issue Chambray?

 

That's a good question. I was thinking it might be. I compared the blue material to one of my WWII chambray shirts and it looks pretty darn close. Which again could have been used in theater or back home for a costume/middy.

 

I'll post a pic of the jumper collar and the shirt when i get home.

 

-Jay

[sigsaye]

As another example, when I was a kid, my mom took one of my dads old white jumpers and cut it down for me. I just can not see why any one would make a uniform that they could not wear. These guys did not get paid a lot and sometimes uniforms got hard to find. Mom sure this started life as a basic undress white jumper. But sometime after the Sailor no longer needed it, was changed

[RustyCanteen]

Yeah it happened, there is no question about that. I just don't see any way to be 100% certain on this one. It could have been done because he liked the look and wanted to look like an old salt. For example, I talked to some 1970s vets who loved the old blue flat hat and wanted them, but others who had them hated them. It could have been done for his girlfriend, or as a theatrical costume (although the quality seems too good).

 

My own belief that it has a chance is based on the aspect that it does look like something done in Japan. That doesn't prove what it was done for, but I think it was done while he was on active duty.

[RustyCanteen]

Here is the cloth that your photos reminded me of, note the weave:

 

 

 

Can you take some better photos (close-ups) of the added cuffs and collar? It may be that the photos are misleading, but it reminded me of it. Hence the reason I thought your idea of a Japanese connection had merit. Now obviously if done in Japan, it would have been done while he was there. But there is no telling what the intent was. I talked to another collector about this and they pointed out the cuff mark (for Mine Force) was replaced by SSI before the end of the war. If the jumper hadn't been a later issue it would seem pre-war in more ways than one. Out of curiosuty, when did this man enlist?

 

 

[subsystem4]

I'm sorry guys I took a closer look at he fabric on the collar and cuffs and compared them to my chambray shits in better light and I was wrong they are a bit different. I'll take a couple pics. It has that same open looking weave as your Asian sample.

 

The sailor enlisted in early 1943. March or April I believe. He was in Japan from Oct 45 to Jan/Feb 1946. He was on the same ship from Dec 43 until returning to the states in 1946.

 

-Jay

 

[subsystem4]

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[subsystem4]

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[subsystem4]

My wife thinks the material is some sort of linen.

[sigsaye]

Am I moticing that there are NOT stars on the collar? The more I look at this and the more info about the Sailor that comes out, the more I'm convinced that this jumper was never used or intended to be used by the Sailor. At best, he was in Japan, getting ready to go home and return to civie street and had this made up for wife/girl friend/sister, who ever. It's just way too crudely made of stuff that is just not right to be intended as a USN uniform

[subsystem4]

Am I moticing that there are NOT stars on the collar? The more I look at this and the more info about the Sailor that comes out, the more I'm convinced that this jumper was never used or intended to be used by the Sailor. At best, he was in Japan, getting ready to go home and return to civie street and had this made up for wife/girl friend/sister, who ever. It's just way too crudely made of stuff that is just not right to be intended as a USN uniform

 

You're right no stars. You may be right. it is on the real small side too, so maybe a girlfriend, sister, or kid brother even.

[RustyCanteen]

Definitely possible, but it seems there is a fair chance this was at least done while he was in Japan.

 

Very interesting whatever the history is!