Unknown Sheath for Knife, Combat

[bayonetman]

Last week a member started a thread in the Edged Weapons Reference section where he had some questions about a knife and sheath that he had recently acquired. The knife was easy to identify, but the sheath was a different story. Other members commented about the sheath, but none (including me) had any firm answers.

 

I contacted the member and as he had little interest in the set, he agreed to a trade with me. It arrived today and as I am still curious about it, I decided to post it here in hopes that some of the members can provide the correct designation and use.

 

 

Other than seeing a few examples over the years, the only reference I have seen on this sheath is from Cole Book 4, Page 81, published in 1990 so I know it is at least that old.

 

 

A couple of websites refer to this as a SEAL sheath, which I believe is not impossible but I would like to know for sure.

 

It fits the current Knife, Combat (current version of the Navy Mark 2 and USMC 1219c2 "Ka-Bar") perfectly and I believe it was designed for that knife. It is very simple molded plastic, with small nubs molded inside which rub against the blade to hold the knife so there is no need to have the retaining springs. The hanger is one piece of fairly heavy nylon webbing wrapped through a slot in the top of the sheath and sewn to itself. The lightweight handle retaining strap with its glove snap is sewn inside the belt loop. All in all a very simple, rather inexpensive sheath that would stand up well in use on land or in the water, much better than the standard leather sheath. It is very similar to the M10 scabbard and the sheath for the Navy Mark3 Mod0 knife which was supplied to the SEALS. I believe it is POSSIBLE that this sheath was designed and tested in the 1970s and, if truly designed for SEAL or a similar use, may not have been adopted and produced due to the adoption of the Mk3Mod0 knife and sheath.

 

However, thinking and knowing are two different things, and I would really appreciate any information that would lead to the correct designation and use of this sheath.

 

[Frank Trzaska]

Hello Gary,

 

Here is what I wrote about them several years ago. After speaking with Bill about them I really did not follow up any further.

 

The UDT Scabbard

We find out from our good friend Bill Adams that the so called UDT scabbard shown in Cole IV pg. 81 was a commercially available scabbard sold by Healthways a well known divers supply company. When Bill was trying to track them down as to who made them he ran into a stone walling from the Navy. Bill approached his then Senator Sam Nunn, head of the Senate Armed Services Committee to encourage the Navy to supply the name of the contractor. Well it worked, Bill was supplied the name of Healthways as the supplier. This it would seem leads to the fact that someone in the Navy knew of the scabbards. Bill tried to arrange for the procurement of them to sell through his company but the cost for the wholesale order was prohibitive to make any money with. The scabbards were made in a Velcro closure as well and the familiar snap closure retaining strap. While we have never seen any proof that these scabbards were in fact used or tested by the SEALs we do now know they were commercially sold items and in fact the Navy knew about them.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

[bayonetman]

Frank, thanks for the information. It doesn't surprise me that it was a commercial item, although as I said, it is very much like a couple of the US models.

[DRE66]

Since Healthways went out of business in 1963 evidently these sheaths were manufactured using the Healthways trademark but being owned by Scubapro. Interesting side-note that Kmart was selling Healthway branded products up through the 70's. Seems funny that you could have potentially purchased these sheaths from a Kmart store for your next UDT foray.

[doyler]

I have one of these scabbards.Came out of an old collection/accumulation.

 

Wasnt uncommon for the early UDT/SEALs to unit purchase or private purchase items.

[bayonetman]

Just doing some checking now that Frank has produced a lead. Although there are a lot of old Healthways and ScubaPro ads on the internet, none show a sheath like this one, and most of the ads that do show dive knives show Japanese made knives and the far more complex strap on sheaths normally associated with divers.

 

Dick Bonin was a legend in the dive world . A short biography of him states: " Dick Bonin is one of the most famous Navy UDT/SEALS and equipment manufacturers in diving. Bonin got his start as a Navy officer assigned to some of the earliest UDT/SEAL teams. He was Submersible Operations Officer active in demolition and testing the latest dive gear for the Navy. Upon leaving the Navy in 1956 he went to work for a dive shop in Chicago. He soon took a job with Swimmaster, which led him to the West Coast. They sold rubber products only, with the famous "Duck Feet" diving fins being quite popular with the military." It goes on to state that he was hired by Healthways to head up their ScubaPro division, and after Healthways went bankrupt in 1963 he and a partner bought the rights to the ScubaPro name which he ran until retirement in 1993.

 

This sheath is not typical of dive knife sheaths which normally have slots and straps to attach to legs or other parts of the body rather than hanging from a belt. Also most dive knives were/are stainless steel, often sawback and of a different configuration which probably would not fit this sheath well.

 

Given Bonin's background, the possibility that he was associated with this sheath as a possible replacement for the leather sheath used by UDT or SEALs makes some sense. Also as mentioned, such units often bought items from unit funds or even by individuals. So it is POSSIBLE that sheaths of this design were used or tested by some UDT / SEAL personnel. As is usual with this sort of equipment, without strong provenance it would be impossible to determine if this particular one has a military background.

[DRE66]

Considering how many of the plastic scabbard Mark 2's were still in supply, the Navy probably wasn't interested in spending the money.

[bayonetman]

I have continued digging for information on this sheath. So far everything has been more negative than positive - that is, people know what it is NOT, not what it IS.

 

I have contacted a number of people, some of whom referred me on to others. Included were people associated with Healthways / ScubaPro and others involved on one level or another with UDT, SEAL teams and scuba diving.

 

In GENERAL, here is what has been stated:

 

1. No one associated with either Healthways or ScubaPro remembers this sheath - these are people who go back to the beginnings of the companies and were directly associated with them. The general consensus is that these companies did not get into things like this.

 

2. So far no one who was UDT or SEAL remembers the sheath - but some agree that it would have made some sense in the 1960s period although none of them go back that far.

 

3. Two different people, both collectors of early Scuba gear and to some degree UDT type items state that they were TOLD that this scabbard, and the one with a Velcro grip retainer were tested by SEAL Teams 1 and 2 in the 1960s, and that SEAL 1 did submit a evaluation sheet. Further information indicates that the sheath was tested to be a "Universal" sheath, useable with not only the Mark 2 style knife but with others such as the Mad Dog, Delta and Mission knives, and more particularly the Non-Magnetic dive knife as the Velcro version has NO metal. The Velcro version was supposedly given a higher rating because the strap would more readily secure the grips of all the knives.

 

4. No One has been able to even suggest a maker.

 

One respondent did send some photos of some of the knives in his collection with both the sheaths.

 

The investigation continues.

[DRE66]

There's no way a Mad Dog ATAK or Mission MPK could fit in that sheath but dimensions appear to work for the other knives in question. Conceptually, its a great idea.

[bayonetman]

There's no way a Mad Dog ATAK or Mission MPK could fit in that sheath but dimensions appear to work for the other knives in question. Conceptually, its a great idea.

Thanks for the information. I think the person sending the information was just naming knives that might have been in use in the late 1960s. I don't get into this type of knife and know practically nothing about them, so I am glad for the correction.

[bayonetman]

Another piece of information on this scabbard, from the owner of one of the largest collections of diving gear in the world, Mr. Leon Lyons. See his museum at: http://helmetsofthedeep.com/leon-lyons-about.html

 

He says that he has two of these sheaths in his collection. One was obtained from a Navy diver many years ago and the other from a SEAL team member in 1980. His comment about the second one: "issued to a Seal Team 3 Member. He told me it was a replacement for the older MK-2 sheaths, and that 120 of them were made."

 

Unfortunately still no information on the maker. The search continues.

 

A photo of part of the museum showing some of the dive knives.