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Colt 1911 question


Tony641
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I received a text message yesterday from a guy at the local gun shop. They told me that they have a Colt 1911 that they said from the serial number was made around 1940. The pictures are not the best and I cant get them to download, but looking at them it looks to be a shorter barrel than a standard 1911. Did Colt make a commander size 1911 back in the 40s that would have the military proof markings on it? I will try to stop there and get some photos and check for sure the size.

 

Thanks again,

 

Tony

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Follow up with more information. Here are some photos. The pistol is a 5" barrel but has a National Match sights, trigger and I believe barrel. The markings on the barrel I believe are M P. The serial number puts it around a 1943 make. Is this something that can be brought back to original condition or would it be more valuable the way it is now. Also if possible what would a fair price as it sits be.

 

Thanks again

 

16gnb40.jpg

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Sorry that is not the picture. That is one I stole off the Internet to compare. Here are the pictures.

35lgjsj.jpg

w6xxxf.jpg

 

There is a FJM I believe proof as well as a couple P and a SA.

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FJA is a inspector..Frank J Atwood.Found only on Remington Rand and Ithaca produced 45 autos.

 

Appears your lower is from one ofthose two manufacturers.

 

This said if it was built as a National Match and checks out as a military buiid I wouldnt restore it.

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Thanks doyler. I don't own it yet that's why I'm finding things out about her. They want $1200. Knowing now that it's pieced together, any clue what it's worth?

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Thanks doyler. I don't own it yet that's why I'm finding things out about her. They want $1200. Knowing now that it's pieced together, any clue what it's worth?

 

 

Honestly it's probably worth 1/2 of what they're asking as strictly a shooter. A true military national match pistol would be worth more but there are specific things to look for, none of which I see in that picture. Here's a good summary of the NM guns: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=386144

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Possibly 'Transition Model' stocks,1924 vintage

 

Obviously Colt slide

 

Barrel is possibly marked 'P H' not 'M P'

 

SA is in my opinion the rebuild mark, which for Springfield Armory was usually on the right side

 

Can you post a photo of the breechface please?

 

I am not trying to put down the guy at the LGS when I say this, but I feel it needs to be mentioned: if he can't tell the difference between a 1911 and a 1911A1, he doesn't know his old pistols.

 

That said, I'd own that pistol. But for 800 dollars unless it came with some good provenance.

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I can try to get some pictures tomorrow. The couple things I noticed from the link that bearpack posted is that the barrel does not have the serial number on it however there is a serial number on the on the barrel bushing. That serial number does not match the serial number of the pistol. The serial number on the pistol is a in the high 1,000,000 and the one on the bushing is in the 700,000.

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I can try to get some pictures tomorrow. The couple things I noticed from the link that bearpack posted is that the barrel does not have the serial number on it however there is a serial number on the on the barrel bushing. That serial number does not match the serial number of the pistol. The serial number on the pistol is a in the high 1,000,000 and the one on the bushing is in the 700,000.

 

The bushing number is a part number, not a serial number. It looks to be an old school hardball gun, that said unless it has US Gov't. provenance I would be hard pressed to put more than $600 into it.

 

Too many of these were civilian built back in the '50s thru the '70s using surplus guns and questionable parts. If you could have a real gunsmith check it out for frame battering, slide to frame fit, chipped lugs and a dozen other potential problems then you should, it is the only real way to be sure.

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A lot of the pistols built in the late 60s and 70s had Essex frames and GI uppers.The built ones I have seen here locally the guys didnt bother to re-parkerize the front site when replaced.Often they blued the top or the whole gun.

 

Be intresting to find out if it was a older gun built for pin shoots or something an Amorer did.

 

We have a local Air Force vet who was also in the air Guard and on the Govenors 10 team.When he was in the Air Force they were able to get a hold of some Victory revolvers through a shooting club and then had the base Armorer re-work them.They were blued,front ramp type sites put on and tuned up.They used them to shoot matches in Germany.He still has his as he purchased it through the Club.

 

THe one pictured has some intresting features.Being a !911a1 frame I see they took off the arched main soring housing and it is flat like a 1911 Model.

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The one thing I remember about the SA NM Pistols is that they were usually reparked slides and frames (until the Essex or NM Slides were used) and had stippled front grip straps as well...I have a buddy who had one, unfired and sealed in a foil bag inside the kraft box..

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...but again, this example does not display the hallmarks of being NM very well. It does surely look like a possible 'armorer special' though but sadly without provenance....

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The one thing I remember about the SA NM Pistols is that they were usually reparked slides and frames (until the Essex or NM Slides were used) and had stippled front grip straps as well.

 

 

...but again, this example does not display the hallmarks of being NM very well. It does surely look like a possible 'armorer special' though but sadly without provenance....

 

 

That's what I'm thinking. A true military NM gun would have been totally reparked with numbered barrel, etc. This one is possibly an armorer put-together but still a put-together regardless. I bet it sits for quite a while at the asking price.

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For what it's worth, I'd save my money and put it toward a nice, correct, collectible 1911A1. If you want a "shooter", pick-up a new 1911 from a quality maker (Springfield, Colt, Kimber, etc) for a similar price to what is being asked for this 70 year old gun. Best of luck to you!

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No short barrel made with US markings.

Not quit true. The General Officers Model M-15 was made for GOs I believe in the 60's. Very few were made. This was a 1911 with a shortened NM slide engraved w/"General Officers Model" a set of high fixed sights,frame carried a GO serial #. Grips were checkered walnut with the Rock Island Arsenal logo and the opposite grip had a silver plate for the owners name to be engraved. The RIA logo was a tie tack from their museum gift shop. It was issued as a set with belt,holster and mag pouch.

I have the blue prints somewhere. I picked them up when I went to the National Match armorers school held at RIA.

I even had a slide for awhile.

Bob

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For what it's worth, I'd save my money and put it toward a nice, correct, collectible 1911A1. If you want a "shooter", pick-up a new 1911 from a quality maker (Springfield, Colt, Kimber, etc) for a similar price to what is being asked for this 70 year old gun. Best of luck to you!

good advice here.

 

-Brian

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Thanks for all the help and advice. I believe I'll hold off and maybe if it sits for a while I can get a deal on it. Again thanks again for everything, this place is awesome.

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FWIW, I was up in Winchester, VA yesterday at Taylor's and Company and they have their base model 70 Series "Taylor's Tactical" 1911 for $350. I was sorely tempted to grab one, and had I not just picked up three single action revolvers I would have no doubt melted the credit card.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/taylor-s-tactical-1/taylor-s-1911-models.html

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