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SCABBARD FOR THE M91 MOSIN NAGANT?

Started by BEAST , Jun 30 2008 02:46 AM

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#1 BEAST

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 02:46 AM

What scabbard was used by US troops issued the M91 Mosin Nagant? Were they modified with the 1910 pattern hanger?

#2 Milsurp Collector

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:12 AM

None.

According to American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century, the U.S. did not manufacture a scabbard for the 1891 rifle bayonets issued in this country or North Russia.

#3 BEAST

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:20 AM

Milsurp,
Thanks for the reply. So, when armed with the Nagant, our forces in North Russia or Siberia didn't carry a bayonet at all?

#4 Milsurp Collector

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:36 AM

In all patterns prior to M1938 and except for Cossack rifles, the Mosin Nagant were intended to be carried and shot only with the bayonet attached. All rifles were zeroed in with the bayonet in place, so removal of the bayonet seriously affected the point of impact and effectively required the rifle to be re-zeroed.

So I guess the bayonet was mounted to the rifle most of the time, following Russian practice. I don't know what the US troops in Russia (Archangel, Siberia) did with the bayonet when they took it off, maybe it was just stuck under the belt.

Some information about MN bayonets here http://www.mosinnaga...bayonet-one.asp

With the acute shortage of suitable rifles that existed in 1914 and early 1915, it did not take long for both the Germans and Austro-Hungarians to put to use the huge numbers of captured enemy rifles which had fallen into their hands in the opening months of the war. The weapons that were recovered from the battlefield were collected and shipped to arms depots for sorting and salvage operations. When and where the need was great, some percentage of the rifles inspected, were issued immediately from the arms depots without alterations of any kind. Since large quantities of bayonets were recovered from the battlefield along with the salvaged rifles, captured bayonets would have been issued with most of these rifles. The standard Russian practice of keeping the bayonets fixed permanently to the rifles presented the Germans and Austro-Hungarians with a problem. The Russians neither produced nor issued scabbards. The captured bayonets therefore lacked scabbards, which could be issued with the bayonets. One wonders as to how many Russian soldiers lost an eye or worse to this rather unusual practice!


Edited by Milsurp Collector, 30 June 2008 - 10:43 AM.


#5 BEAST

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:47 AM

No scabbards in use by the Russians? Interesting!

As the bayonet was an important part of the WWI kit, it is hard to imagine that the US forces would have not carried one. However, I can't recall seeing photos of the AEF Siberia or NR forces with a bayonet (fixed or unfixed) when carrying the M91.

Does anyone have photos of the American troops with a M91? Please post if you do, especially if they are wearing their field gear.

#6 Milsurp Collector

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:54 AM

The 339th Infantry Leaves for Russia

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Shore detail from the USS Olympia

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In formation in the snow

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More info on US-made Mosin Nagant 1891 rifles http://www.mosinnaga...sin-Nagants.asp

Edited by Milsurp Collector, 30 June 2008 - 11:00 AM.


#7 BEAST

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 11:09 AM

Great photos and great information! Thanks!

To go back to one of the earlier points, if the Mosin-Nagant was engineered to be fired with the bayonet on, but the Americans did not use the bayonet, were any modifications made to make them more accurate?

Maybe one of the reasons that these rifles were so disliked by our troops was due to the inaccuracy when firing without the bayonet?

#8 Milsurp Collector

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 11:20 AM

If they decided not to mount the bayonet when firing the rifle, they probably adjusted the sights to compensate.

Found more pictures. With both it looks like they have the bayonet mounted on 1891 Mosin Nagant rifles, so they did have the bayonets, even if they didn't always carry them or use them.

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#9 SARGE

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 11:43 AM

One exception to the always fixed bayonet practice of the Russian infantry was that some Russian cavalry units were able to detach the bayonet and attach them to their sword scabbard. This allowed mounted troopers to sling the rifle across their back while on horseback. The Austrians and Germans ran into the same problem when they re-issued captured Mosin-Nagant stands of arms to their second line troops. So, the Germans produced metal scabbards for the bayonet and issued them with the bayonets. I have never heard of an official US scabbard made for these bayonets. Great photographs of them in use by US troops!

#10 BEAST

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 12:54 PM

Great discussion! My next questions is: What did the bayonet look like? Is it different than Mosin-Nagant bayonets made during WWII? Did the US manufacturers also make the bayonets?

#11 Milsurp Collector

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:24 PM

As far as I know, the only difference between the 1891 bayonet and the 91/30 bayonet is the locking mechanism. Remington made Model 1891 bayonets.

Also, after looking at the pictures and doing some reading, it looks like only the troops in North Russia (Archangel and Murmansk) were equipped with the Mosin Nagant 1891 rifle (to simplify supply of ammunition). The US troops in the pictures from Siberia appear to be using standard issue rifles (Model 1903 or Model 1917).

http://arms2armor.co...ts/russ1891.htm
http://arms2armor.co...ts/rus1891a.htm

This is the Russian Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 socket bayonet, First Pattern, designed for the Mosin-Nagant Infantry Rifle. These are considered Imperial Russian (pre-1918) as opposed to Communist Russian (post-1918); the post-1918 type had a integral push-button/spring latching mechanism instead of a locking ring.
The tip of these bayonets - both patterns - can be used as a screw-driver.
This example bayonet has the manufacturer's logo of an "arrow through a bow" (bow and arrow); this is the trademark of "Ishevky."
The Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 Bayonets - and variants - were used from 1891 into WWII. This bayonet was also used by Austria and Finland.

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This is the Russian Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 socket bayonet - Second Pattern - designed for the Mosin-Nagant Infantry Rifle. These are considered Communist Russian (post-1918) as opposed to Imperial Russian (pre-1918). The post-1918 type - or Second Pattern - utilizes an integral push-button/spring latching mechanism instead of a locking ring as on the Russian Model 1891 Mosin-Nagant Socket Bayonet (1st Pattern). The tip of these bayonets - both models - can be used as a screw-driver.
The Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 Bayonets - and variants - were used from 1891 into WWII. This bayonet was also used by Austria and Finland.



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Edited by Milsurp Collector, 30 June 2008 - 01:46 PM.


#12 SARGE

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 06:45 AM

"The Mosin-Nagant Model 1891 Bayonets - and variants - were used from 1891 into WWII. This bayonet was also used by Austria and Finland."

Milsurp is quite right that both Austria and Finland issued these captured bayonets as well. Both countries made their own scabbards for the bayonets since the Russians did not issue a scabbard. I would love to see a photo of a US soldier wearing a scabbard for one of these bayonets but I have never heard of any official US scabbard.

#13 Milsurp Collector

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:32 AM

I would love to see a photo of a US soldier wearing a scabbard for one of these bayonets but I have never heard of any official US scabbard.


I agree. The US never made any 1891 bayonet scabbards, the Russians didn't have any for US troops to use, so I doubt the US troops in North Russia had scabbards for their bayonets. Either they kept them fixed all the time Russian-style or they figured out some way to carry them.

Here are some of the scabbards the Finns made for their captured bayonets

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#14 J_Andrews

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:31 AM

Russian/Soviet troops did not always carry the MN bayonet fixed, in ready position. It was often REVERSED, in the "unready" position.

Any rifle properly issued out to troops is zeroed to the taste/ability of the individual shooting it. A rifle that is zeroed for Igor, when passed to his squaddie Dmitri may not still be zeroed. I suspect the US troops using M|Ns without bayonets zeroed their rifles as-is, adjusting the point of aim as per Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation, to personal taste.

I recall that a Kar. 98 of mine had vastly different zero using WWII German ammo, WWII British BESA ammo and US commercial hunting softpoint cartridges. But I learned to shoot low with the BESA and a bit high and right with the commercial stuff. Same with a Tokarev pistol, Finnish ammo being tough to hit accurately with and Czech being best.

#15 Camp_Kearny

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 10:44 PM

According to my research, AEF Siberia were issued M1903 rifles. In his book, "Golden Gate to Golden Horn" by Col Strobridge, Col Strobridge writes that when the 5000 soldiers of the 8th Division were re-asigned to AEF Siberia, M1903 rifles were brought from storage in Benecia Arsenal and issued to the soldiers. My history of the 12th Infantry gives the impression that the units of the 8th Division were issued with M1917 rifles so that would explain the issue of the M1903s to the soldiers leaving the division for Siberia. AEF Siberia were well armed with M1903s, M1911s, BARs, M1917 MGs and even a few 37mm Cannons unlike the North Russia expedition.


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