mike wayne Posted October 21, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 21, 2014 if you are unfamiliar with the sable and the wolverine you are in for a treat. they were used to train navy fliers to land on the deck of a carrier. they went from Chicago to Cleveland and back. If I say much more, i'll ruin the surprise you will learn about these two ships. about 25 years ago I talked to a man who watched these ships go past his home on the lake in northern Michigan. he was about 15-16 years old at the time he watched them. I still find it hard to believe the U.S. government owned ships like these for the purpose they served. enjoy learning and you will now have a new subject to win bets on at your local watering hole. unless you run into someone who is part of the .001% of Americans who know about these ships, you can not lose a bet about their existence. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted October 21, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 21, 2014 I still find it hard to believe the U.S. government owned ships like these for the purpose they served. mike Mike, Welcome to the forum!! I don't really understand why you find it "hard to believe" these ships existed and the purpose they served. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIl Sanow Posted October 21, 2014 Share #3 Posted October 21, 2014 I doubt these would have been the full sized Essex class carriers -- ther was no St. Lawrence Seaway then, so the big ships could not have come into the lakes then. More likely they were the smaller escort carriers. If photos could be posted, we could know for sure. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIl Sanow Posted October 21, 2014 Share #4 Posted October 21, 2014 Found one -- Google is a wonderful thing. Curiously, the original ship was built abut 10 miles from where I am sitting right now! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sable_(IX-81) And here is the other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wolverine_(IX-64) G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted October 21, 2014 Share #5 Posted October 21, 2014 Keeping an eye on those pesky Canadians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted October 22, 2014 hi gil you win. did you notice that they are side wheel paddle wheel ships. I always thought this was about as weird as a ship could get, an aircraft carrier powered by 1850 technology. Found one -- Google is a wonderful thing. Curiously, the original ship was built abut 10 miles from where I am sitting right now! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sable_(IX-81) And here is the other: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wolverine_(IX-64) G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #7 Posted October 22, 2014 hi chris thanks for the welcome. they are odd in that they were both powered by side mounted paddle wheels. Mike, Welcome to the forum!!I don't really understand why you find it "hard to believe" these ships existed and the purpose they served.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted October 22, 2014 hi they could not have done much about those "pesky" Canadians. I don't think they had any armament and no deck space to have more than a few planes on the deck. they were just for tough and go training of navy pilots. what makes them unique is how they were propelled. side mounted paddle wheels. take another look. Gil has a couple links to them in one of his posts back to me. it's almost like mounting a 50 caliber machine gun on a hot air balloon in a fixed position. what could you shoot at in the hope of hitting it. these ships are worth the read. take a look. thanks for the response by the way. mike Keeping an eye on those pesky Canadians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted October 22, 2014 good thought. I saw your other posting with the links. good work. I'm answering this posting only because my father served on one of the escort carriers, the u.s.s. cowpens, cv-25. he has called it a "jeep" carrier sometimes. it was the first u.s. carrier into toyko bay after the bombs were dropped. he watched the Japanese surrender from the cowpens deck he has said. it was an independence class carrier. started out as a cruiser I think and construction was changed to a carrier after the keel had been laid. I don't know if all independence class carriers had this similarity but the cowpens had a list to the right (?) I think because of the weight of the island I believe. how lucky we are that the war department realized early on that the carrier was weapon of the then present and future. I doubt these would have been the full sized Essex class carriers -- ther was no St. Lawrence Seaway then, so the big ships could not have come into the lakes then. More likely they were the smaller escort carriers. If photos could be posted, we could know for sure. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIl Sanow Posted October 22, 2014 Share #10 Posted October 22, 2014 I really had not seen the sidewheels in the photos, but read of them in the articles. I am wondering if my parents took the Ceeandbee (Wolverine) on their honeymoon from Cleveland to Buffalo in '37. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share #11 Posted October 23, 2014 hi gil I don't think I have seen a photo that shows the wheels but in the photos from above and perhaps at about 45 degrees to the side, you can see the disturbance in the water a bit past the center of the ship I believe. I wonder if there are any passenger logs from the ceeandbee? wouldn't that be a great find to see your parents listed. I had family who lived in south Euclid but that branch of the tree have all passed on. I've been wondering if the photo at the top of all the site pages here, looks like it was taken on a carrier, could possibly have been taken on the cowpens cv-25. my dad was on it. chances of that are about zero. is there info about that photo posted on the site anywhere? I really had not seen the sidewheels in the photos, but read of them in the articles. I am wondering if my parents took the Ceeandbee (Wolverine) on their honeymoon from Cleveland to Buffalo in '37. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #12 Posted October 23, 2014 Looking at this photo, it appears the paddlewheels are still installed and being used. Really cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artur95 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #13 Posted October 23, 2014 The museum on the former grounds of NAS Glenview has some great information pertaining to the Sable and Wolverine. They had a model of one of the carriers and some pics the last time I checked. If anyone's interested, I recommend visiting the museum (I am not affiliated with them whatsoever). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIl Sanow Posted October 23, 2014 Share #14 Posted October 23, 2014 I am surprised at the amount of deck that overhangs the stern in hink441's photo. I assume they needed the length to replicate real carrier. I certainly learned something in this thread. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share #15 Posted October 23, 2014 this is one of the better photos of either of these ships. I have not looked in several years but I think there is another photo taken from in front of the bow and about 45 degrees to the side that if you look closely and know that you are trying to find churned up water, you can see where the paddle is. president George h.w. bush did some touch and go landings on one or both of these ships. it is also claimed that there are anywhere from 100 to as many as 300 planes that did not do so well on trying to land or touch and go and are on the lake bottom. these are a couple of ships that belong in a ripley's believe it or not museum. fun stuff for me. thanks for posting the photo. I can't seem to get all the steps right to get photos posted yet. maybe a few more touch and go posting tries and i'll get it. Looking at this photo, it appears the paddlewheels are still installed and being used. Really cool!image.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatl Posted November 8, 2014 Share #16 Posted November 8, 2014 I am surprised at the amount of deck that overhangs the stern in hink441's photo. I assume they needed the length to replicate real carrier. I certainly learned something in this thread. G All carrier landings are crosswind because if the carrier steams directly into the wind, the turbulence from the island is too much for landing aircraft. I've been told that due to the small size of the Great Lakes carriers, they had to steam at a greater angle into the win to prevent the island turbulence from being a problem. I'm guessing that was also a consideration in placing the island so far forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted November 8, 2014 Share #17 Posted November 8, 2014 All carrier landings are crosswind because if the carrier steams directly into the wind, the turbulence from the island is too much for landing aircraft. I've been told that due to the small size of the Great Lakes carriers, they had to steam at a greater angle into the win to prevent the island turbulence from being a problem. I'm guessing that was also a consideration in placing the island so far forward. Never heard of this before. Where are you getting this info from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Posted November 8, 2014 Share #18 Posted November 8, 2014 One of my good friends Dad was a Navy pilot in WWII and he did his carrier quaification training on the Sable and Wolverine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share #19 Posted November 10, 2014 very interesting. I did not know this and that's why I posted about these ships in the first place. few knew of them. such an oddity and I was hoping for this kind of input. that's great. thank you all who have commented. as I have no talent with computers, this is a major event for me just posting this but could one of you who knows how, find and post a photo of either ship from before the conversion to carrier? it might give some insight into the placement of the island. perhaps the location of the stacks when they were ferry boats is why they were chosen for conversion. and bobatl, I'm not contending what you said here, makes sense to me, it is a case of the more you know, the more you know. All carrier landings are crosswind because if the carrier steams directly into the wind, the turbulence from the island is too much for landing aircraft. I've been told that due to the small size of the Great Lakes carriers, they had to steam at a greater angle into the win to prevent the island turbulence from being a problem. I'm guessing that was also a consideration in placing the island so far forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIl Sanow Posted November 10, 2014 Share #20 Posted November 10, 2014 Google the original names of the and Wikipedia will show the pix. Good luck. g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted November 10, 2014 Share #21 Posted November 10, 2014 I dont believe the "all carrier landings are crosswind" statement is accurate. I also don't believe "Island turbulence" is an issue. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobatl Posted November 11, 2014 Share #22 Posted November 11, 2014 Well the Marine pilot who told me that may not have known as much as you do. He quoted the figures for crosswind; I think it was about five degrees but that's been many years ago and the exact numbers weren't important enough to stick in my memory. He brought up the subject of the Great Lakes carriers requiring a greater crosswind angle; something he must have been told by the old-timers he flew with. It was interesting hearing him talk about carrier qual in those days and the somewhat casual attitude towards accidents. He said they had plenty of SNJ's parked in the desert so they weren't going to wash you out for pranging one if you'd gotten as far in your training as carrier qual. One guy killed himself in his third accident trying to carrier qual and after that he said they got a little tougher. I will add that he was Korean War vintage so he wasn't using angled decks for SNJ, F6F, F4U & AD.With angled decks, the ship is crosswind but the deck is straight into the wind. I dont believe the "all carrier landings are crosswind" statement is accurate. I also don't believe "Island turbulence" is an issue.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Government Issue Posted November 11, 2014 Share #23 Posted November 11, 2014 Mike I don't know if you've seen this before but I found this while looking for info on the ships. Thanks for bringing such an interesting topic to my attention! For your viewing pleasure... Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wayne Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share #24 Posted November 14, 2014 hi joseph wow, this video is fantastic. I had never seen it before and the shot of the paddles was really great to watch. in my wildest dreams, I never thought there was video of either ship out there. I learned of them about the time the internet was still a word of mystery to 99% of the population. I had not tried to look them up for about the past 4-5 years so I guess by now there should be more available like this if it exists in the first place. I'm sorry I did not see your posting sooner. I have been having trouble with my wi-fi connection and it seemed like it got even worse if I logged on to a site and I just have this thing about logging off rather than just closing the tab. since I can't remember all the little details of some battle or all the ships in some task force, finding something like these ships where a little info that I can recall, can get others interested is where I have my fun with it. look how many others will now learn about this goofy little subject and perhaps get a smile out of it. also, if you have noticed, no one had tried to connect these two ships to some alien invasion from outer space. I have to try to learn something everyday even if my two brain cells can't remember it for years anymore. thanks again for the posting. mike Mike I don't know if you've seen this before but I found this while looking for info on the ships. Thanks for bringing such an interesting topic to my attention! For your viewing pleasure... Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northcoastaero Posted January 4, 2015 Share #25 Posted January 4, 2015 There is a book in the Images of America series on these ships. It is titled: Lake Michigan's Aircraft Carriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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