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Prewar wing


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#1 mghcal

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:07 PM

Hi guys,
I just got this prewar wing and its clearly a different die compared to the others I've seen. The shield is narrower and the top portion of the shield with the horizontals is taller. Also the wingtip second feather isn't as long. This one also has no snowflakes on the back. Have any of you seen this type before? There is another on ebay right now with clutchbacks in this type die.

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#2 mghcal

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:12 PM

here's the other pattern to compare. you can also see that the bottom of the shield is squarer.

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Edited by mghcal, 09 October 2014 - 07:13 PM.


#3 skypilot6670

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:01 AM

I think they are both Orber first model.This is a really attractive wing.I like the pronounced shoulders similar to early Lintz (sic) wings.A forum search Orber thorns up some good reading on these and Lintz. Fraternally Mike

#4 B-17Guy

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:31 PM

Hey Mike, it is tough to tell, but they sure look close.

Here is the die I have.

I have three first pattern Orber's, which I will post pics of as well.

 

John

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  • First Pattern Orber Die 002.jpg


#5 mghcal

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:55 PM

I think my posts may be confusing. The one on the first post is the new one and the 2nd post photo of the two is the old pattern in both plated and sterling. I didn't have a different photo with just one of the first pattern and since I have this tablet instead of a real computer I can't seem to figure out how to download new photos let alone getting them resized to fit on here. if someone can copy and post this ebay wing it's the pattern with the skinnier flat bottom shield like my new one. http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1436.l2649

#6 skypilot6670

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 03:20 AM

John that is really nice.The Orber first pattern is special in my opinion.The clean angular design brings the 1930s Art Deco look to mind.Buck Rogers (Buster Crabe) the Wizard of Oz and the Chrysler building.Orber shows courage to invest in a design that was new to military insignia.That you have the Die that made these wings is amazing and thanks for posting it.This is a great example of a golden age wing to me.What years would you estimate these wings were produced? Thanks Mike

#7 pfrost

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:34 AM

I don't think these wings are as old as many people think.   They may be "pre-war" but my sense is that they are only about a year or so "pre" (and may have been used early in WWII).  I have a photo of a guy wearing this patter of wing that I believe to be war time vintage (I'll post it later).  I also recall that Cliff has some interesting information about this wing pointing to a 1940-41 vintage.

 

Still, a nice and rare wing that has eluded me for years.

 

Patrick



#8 pfrost

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:53 AM

If you go here and look at posts 23-25 or so, you will find some additional information.

 

http://www.usmilitar...ngs#entry351472

 

Here is a picture of a guy wearing the Orber-style wing.   You can't see it well, but I believe he is also wearing the USAAF troop carrier command DIs.  That would likely place the picture no earlier then about 1942.

 

Frankly, while i have seen a few other WWII vintage pictures with this wing being worn, I have yet to see anything pre-1940-41.

 

 

 

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#9 501stGeronimo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:05 AM

If you go here and look at posts 23-25 or so, you will find some additional information.
 
http://www.usmilitar...ngs#entry351472
 
Here is a picture of a guy wearing the Orber-style wing.   You can't see it well, but I believe he is also wearing the USAAF troop carrier command DIs.  That would likely place the picture no earlier then about 1942.
 
Frankly, while i have seen a few other WWII vintage pictures with this wing being worn, I have yet to see anything pre-1940-41.
 
 
 

I don't believe those are troop carrier at all. Looks like a different unit, not shaped like the TC dui. And judging by the collar insignia, look like they are pinback and the props look like the early pieces.

#10 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:10 AM

I agree with Patrick, that these are for sure pre-WWII wings, but possibly just barely.

I have always felt that the Orber's first pattern dates from the mid to late 1930's and definitely 

saw use well into WWII.

Here is a first pattern Orber pilot wing badge on a set of M1938 dress blues dated 8/20/1938.

 

Best, John

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  • First Pat Orber with dress blues 006.jpg


#11 pfrost

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:21 AM

I don't believe those are troop carrier at all. Looks like a different unit, not shaped like the TC dui. And judging by the collar insignia, look like they are pinback and the props look like the early pieces.

 

Just checked, they are troop carrier command DIs.



#12 501stGeronimo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:22 AM

I checked also, still don't look like them at all.

#13 pfrost

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:25 AM

I'm not going to argue with you, but that is what they are.  I have the actual picture in front of me and will try to get a better scan of the photo later.

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#14 501stGeronimo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:26 AM

Hate to say that you are wrong, but that isnt near the TC DUI. That DUI has a top that keeps going and doesnt make a circle at the top. Wouldn't think of this as a argument, just a discussion.


Edited by 501stGeronimo, 13 October 2014 - 08:30 AM.


#15 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:32 AM

Any chance we could stay on the topic of wings?



#16 501stGeronimo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:32 AM

Here you an see that it is in no way shaped like the TC DUI.

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#17 501stGeronimo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:33 AM

Any chance we could stay on the topic of wings?

 

Figuring out what the DUI is may help date the wings.
 



#18 501stGeronimo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:35 AM

Traced

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#19 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:19 AM

I did some checking Mike, and I have four first pattern Orber wings.

I have pinback-sterling and non-sterling and clutchback-sterling and non-sterling.

 

First, here is the wing from the uniform, clutchback sterling.

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  • First Pat Orber with dress blues 003.jpg
  • First Pat Orber with dress blues 004.jpg


#20 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:23 AM

Pinback sterling

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#21 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:26 AM

Pinback non-sterling

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  • 1930's Orber Pilot Wing 001.jpg


#22 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:28 AM

Clutchback non-sterling

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#23 skypilot6670

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:03 AM

John those are beautiful. I'am telling you that is one very nice design.I really don't have any idea when these first show in photos . In the link Patrick provided a good case is made for late 30s.I think this would fit nicely with the popularity of that design style.It certainly makes a statement that the person wearing it is contemporary and proud of his pilot status.Personally pilot wings are my favorite as I figure everyone else is just along for the ride,Dallas Wings for WW1 and these Orber for WW2. Thanks for posting. Mike

#24 mghcal

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:07 AM

For whatever it might be worth I also thought these are probably late 1930s at the earliest. Here is a Senior Pilot that was later converted to Command Pilot. The wing belonged to Charles Stark who was shown as graduating from advanced flying school pursuit course in 1938 with a rank of senior pilot. That'd tie In with what everyone else is saying. Great discussion guys and thanks for contributing so much to this thread 👍

I have another photo showing the wing in my first post being alot different compared to all the others posted here and as soon as I can figure out how to get it posted it'll be easy to see that it's either a different die of this type or a fake wing...

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#25 skypilot6670

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:20 AM

Mgchal Thanks for the great thread.Is your command Orber a snowflake back? Could you post a picture of the back please? Thanks Again. Mike


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