Patrol74 Posted October 6, 2014 Share #1 Posted October 6, 2014 Hello, I have found this sword in an old house here in my country, Catalonia (Europe). I don`t know anything about swords but this seems american to me. Is it correct ? Any of you could tell me something about this sword ? The period etc... Thanks a lot. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted October 6, 2014 Share #2 Posted October 6, 2014 It appears to be for either an 1850 Foot Officer's Sword or 1850 Staff and Field Officers sword. Typical Civil War era US Army officer swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry K. Posted October 6, 2014 Share #3 Posted October 6, 2014 Looks like an Ames manfactured blade from a mid 1800's militia sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted October 6, 2014 Share #4 Posted October 6, 2014 Looks like an Ames manfactured blade from a mid 1800's militia sword Now that you mention it, the fuller does look different from what the M1850 swords have. So, militia more likely. I was thinking it had the wide blade of an M1850. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrol74 Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share #5 Posted October 6, 2014 Hi Kurt and Terry ! Thanks for your help ! Was the militia from the US side or from the confederate side ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 8, 2014 Share #6 Posted October 8, 2014 It is not an Ames etch. What are the blade dimensions? The double edged and fullered blade about 31" long were the 1830's general officer's sword and later roman helmet militia officer's swords. The blade etch here looks more German/Solingen with the lattice work. The Ames etch is really light and very distinct from other sources. http://www.civilwarpreservations.com/Home.aspx/Catdet/USR2?nm=ames-general-officer-sword-orig-brass-scabbard&category=GroupSecond&bread_last=%2FHome.aspx%2FCatpage%2FGroupSecond%3FGroupType%3DSwords%26MakerGroup%3DAmes%2520Mfg.%2520Co.%26psize%3D30%26sortseq%3DName&category_desc=Swords%20by%20Maker%3A%20Ames%20Mfg.%20Co. Is the eagle grabbing a banner with its beak E Pluribus Unum? US militia were basically the national guard and all states had them. There is no way to know if the blade in question served the south but there were certainly instances Later militia type . Federal Lt Colonel Charles Norton during the civil war with a militia roman helmet sword Lost in my files at the moment is the full picture of a South Carolina Confederate officer with a similar sword. Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 8, 2014 Share #7 Posted October 8, 2014 Here it is, right where it was supposed to be. :Lt John Warren White Co K Palmetto Sharp Shooters These later militia swords were first during the Mexican war period but were still popular in the 1850s. Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrol74 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted October 8, 2014 It is not an Ames etch. What are the blade dimensions? Hi GC ! Thank you very much ! The sword is 71,5 cm long and the weight is 321 gr. I have added more pics. The strange thing is for which reason this sword arrived to Catalonia in the XIX century... At that time here we had the carlists wars during 1846-1849 and then again during 1872-1876. Maybe a catalan traditionalist enlisted with the confederates and after that he returned home ? It's very interesting !! Cheers ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrol74 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted October 8, 2014 And another one, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 8, 2014 Share #10 Posted October 8, 2014 Unfortunately, without a true background for its travel, there is no way to know how the sword arrived there. This blade is shorter than the swords I have referenced and that adds to the puzzle a bit more, especially so without the hilt parts. It is possible the blade had been shortened at some point for whatever reason. There was definitely a US naval presence in the Mediterranean sea and it might possibly be from a non-regulation sword of a marines officer. The blade type is common to more hilting options than the two types shown. I would date it a good bit earlier than the American Civil war, simply due to stricter regulations of the 1840s and 1850s but again no way to know for sure. Any makers stamp at the base of the blade might be a lead. A crowned king or knight's bust, some small stamp. The overall etch is very European with a faces just below the eagle. I have seen some French etches not unlike this and the faces (bundled rods) lend to an earlier icon of sword decoration. Attached here is a French etch from the 1850s-1860s on a foot officer's sabre. I will post next of an Ames etched eagle. Cheers Glen C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 8, 2014 Share #11 Posted October 8, 2014 Unfortunately, there is a passion to relate all American swords through the 1860s (and beyond) to the war between the states and without strict provenance, there is no reason at all to build on theory that it must be confederate used. One can write or project any number of possibilities but in the end, start at the beginning. Here is a US made Ames sword etch of the 1830s. It is really possible that your blade was originally made to order and sold abroad, as there is no furbisher mark. Companies such as Horstmann were not bashful in marking them. Solingen makers/cutlers as well but the French would mark their hilts and blades except for when private purchase or export sales. Cheers Glen C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 8, 2014 Share #12 Posted October 8, 2014 Here is a link to the photo and info for White and the original colorized photo. I had altered it to b&w for better definition and flipped it for correction. http://scscv.com/?attachment_id=2089 Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrol74 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share #13 Posted October 8, 2014 This blade is shorter than the swords I have referenced and that adds to the puzzle a bit more, especially so without the hilt parts. It is possible the blade had been shortened at some point for whatever reason. Hello Glen, unfortunately I can't see any maker stamp. I will try to investigate more about who was the person who owned it. The only thing I know is that the man was a veteran of the carlists wars because in the old house it was found a blunderbuss and a knife from that period. I know that the carlists who fought against the spanish government used to wear sabres and swords bought by them in Klingenthal, France. Attached here there are a couple more of photos of the blade. Thanks a lot for your explanations ! Cheers ! Manel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZPhil Posted October 8, 2014 Share #14 Posted October 8, 2014 What does it say on the ricasso? I can't it out at the angles you are taking the pic's Semper Fi Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 8, 2014 Share #15 Posted October 8, 2014 What does it say on the ricasso? I can't it out at the angles you are taking the pic's Semper Fi Phil To be honest, enlarged it almost looks like Ames Mfg Co Chicopee below that. I missed that in earlier pictures. However, the earlier swords makers mark were a needle etched script. Hamilton's Ames book discusses the copies/forgeries including the makers mark. That published reference goes back to the mid 1830s (1836 iirc). You will also see needle etching in the eagle's banner. Attached is a true Ames mark for these blades from the beginning through the 1850s. Earlier they will read N.P. Ames either Springfield or Chiocpee with the post Nathan (James took over after Nathan died) swords marked Ames Mfg Co Chicopee but all of these fine line needle etched. A round on me if it truly is an Ames but it would have been from a very expensive presentation effort. I'll look through the Hamilton book again. From the picture of the blade tip, it was shortened. Cheers GC in addendum Well, I yield In looking at the Ames etching examples, Nathan's shop was doing some private and presentation examples with broad etched letters as opposed to the more easily done production work needle etched script. Some examples of the heavier and more elaborate work back to the 1840s. I really need to get my right eye implant done, as I don't catch some of the obvious stuff and then misinterpret what I did say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrol74 Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share #16 Posted October 9, 2014 What does it say on the ricasso? I can't it out at the angles you are taking the pic's Semper Fi Phil Hi Phil, I think that the words are Ames Mfg Co Chicopee as Glen has said. Thanks ! Manel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrol74 Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share #17 Posted October 9, 2014 Well, I yield In looking at the Ames etching examples, Nathan's shop was doing some private and presentation examples with broad etched letters as opposed to the more easily done production work needle etched script. Some examples of the heavier and more elaborate work back to the 1840s. I really need to get my right eye implant done, as I don't catch some of the obvious stuff and then misinterpret what I did say. Hi Glen, so it seems that the blade is part of an Ames U.S. militia sword from 1850 approximately ? What do you think ? Thanks a lot ! Cheers Manel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted October 10, 2014 Share #18 Posted October 10, 2014 Ames developed a regulation eagle pommel naval saber in the 1830s until the 1852 change, so that is kind of ruled out as possibly naval. Still a marine officer of the time on board may have chosen a private purchase straight sword instead of a mameluke saber. Whatever it used to be was a very fancy etch for an expensive sword. Nathan Ames died in 1847, so the timeline of the Ames Mfg Co mark is after that. I don't know if there were ever US land forces deployed along that coast. Truly, swords and other arms tend to wander past oceans in general sales and there is no way to know for sure without a chain of ownership. If only these things could talk. Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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