Female Soldier Wearing Male Dress Blue Items?

[seanmc1114]

Sgt. Sarah Walton, an MP with the 3rd Infantry Regiment, wearing the Army Service uniform with what appears to be male uniform items, including standard necktie and service cap. Is this also a female uniform Army-wide or something that is restricted to the 3rd Infantry?

 

Also notice her wear of Air Force badges and ribbons.

[firefighter]

Interesting.Looks to be prior AF Force Protection.

 

Personnel assigned to select Army bands, as well as the 3rd Infantry Regiment's Commander-in-Chief's Guard, are authorized one of several different styles of alternate dress uniforms for public duties. Cadets at the U.S. Military Academy wear a grey swallow-tailed blouse with white trousers and black shako for parades and drills. Finally, some National Guard units have unique, regimental uniforms that are used for ceremonies.

Nothing here:

 

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/p670_1.pdf

[DutchInfid3l]

Never occurred to me that Air Force unit award ribbons would be worn on the right on Army Uniforms as well... As is her Meritorious Unit ribbon...

[firefighter]

Never occurred to me that Air Force unit award ribbons would be worn on the right on Army Uniforms as well... As is her Meritorious Unit ribbon...

 

 

Yes.Just like Navy unit awards.

[seanmc1114]

Here is the site where I found the pictures:

 

https://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=Profile&type=Person&ID=80268

 

Note in the following picture that she correctly wears the Air Force Meritorious Unit Award without a gold frame over her right pocket with her other unit awards. This looks awkward to me but I have also seen the Navy Presidential Unit Citation and Air Force Outstanding Unit Award worn this way before.

 

Also note that she is wearing the Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon with a gold frame among her ribbons over her left pocket. Even though this ribbon can be earned with a frame, it is a personal award and not a unit award.

 

Is the Air Force Training Ribbon authorized for wear at the same time as the Army Service Ribbon?

[jdamaso111]

Not seeing a Combat Service Identification Badge so im guessing her deployment was with the airforce.

[Martinjmpr]

Not seeing a Combat Service Identification Badge so im guessing her deployment was with the airforce.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Would an Air Force deployment rate an Army overseas bar on her right sleeve, though? I'm pretty sure her USAF time would not count for "hash marks" on her left sleeve but I don't know about the overseas bar.

[Redlegwolf]

Interesting. Definitely not Army wide. Otherwise men could ostensibly wear the neck tabs...

[seanmc1114]

From what I have been able to determine, the 289th Military Police Company is attached to the 4th Battalion 3rd Infantry Regiment at Arlington National Cemetery. Click on the following link to read about the woman in the attached photo, Sergeant Heather Lynn Johnsen, who was awarded her Tomb Sentinel Badge and became the first female Tomb Sentinel at Arlington in 1996.

 

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/heather-johnsen.htm

 

The wearing of the male tie and service cap may be done for uniformity among the guards.

 

Also note further down in the story it refers to the Military District of Washington Air Assault School.

[doyler]

 

I was thinking the same thing. Would an Air Force deployment rate an Army overseas bar on her right sleeve, though? I'm pretty sure her USAF time would not count for "hash marks" on her left sleeve but I don't know about the overseas bar.

 

 

Plus the drivers badge.

 

Wonder if she was a transport/truck driver on a tour.

[Martinjmpr]

 

 

Plus the drivers badge.

 

Wonder if she was a transport/truck driver on a tour.

 

As an MP I don't think it would be difficult for her to qualify for a driver's badge. IIRC all she would have to do is keep meticulous records of how many miles she drove and have it confirmed by the motor sergeant or dispatcher. I knew very few people who bothered to keep such records because in my experience the driver's badge is considered a "bolo badge", i.e. a badge you get when you can't get anything more significant.

 

It's kind of like wearing a "marksman" qualification badge. All it says is "I met the minimum standards."

[Martinjmpr]

Just noticed her qualification badges are "sharpshooter" badges. It was an unwritten rule in most units I was in that if you didn't rate an "expert" badge you didn't wear it.

[VolunteerArmoury]

The females wear male uniforms at the TOG. I believe I've seen some women from other branches wearing male headgear &/or uniforms in the MDW especially Marine females with male headgear.

 

Another thing to notice is she's wearing the old style MP belt & accoutrements. There's a thread on here asking about modern usage of that so this would be good to cross post it.

 

As mentioned the Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon is an individual rather than unit award so it shouldn't be worn with medals at all unlike the maritime forces who wear their ribbons with no correpsonding medal on their right side with medals on the left. The Army & Air Force don't do this unless I missed something the current AR 670-1. The Overseas Service Stripe is feasible for a previous deployment in a different branch which wouldn't have provisions for a CSIB.

 

Kinda off topic, something I'm curious is of folks from AF, Navy or such who the Army awards a combat patch to (which happened in several units at Division & Corps that I was with especially Navy folks) then they transfer to the Army & eligibility to wear then. One can also see other branches who were awarded CAB, CMB, & EFMB by the Army but if transferred to the Army may not have a combat patch.

[Martinjmpr]

 

Kinda off topic, something I'm curious is of folks from AF, Navy or such who the Army awards a combat patch to (which happened in several units at Division & Corps that I was with especially Navy folks) then they transfer to the Army & eligibility to wear then. One can also see other branches who were awarded CAB, CMB, & EFMB by the Army but if transferred to the Army may not have a combat patch.

 

Volunteer: As far as I know the "award" of a combat patch (FWTS-SSI) is purely a ceremonial/morale thing and in no way an "official" award of anything. Since the other services don't wear SSI's, a combat patch would not be wearable in any case unless the airman/sailor in question was attached to an Army unit. I did see USAF personnel wearing combat patches when I was in, but only on the BDU and only while actually assigned to a unit that was in direct support of an Army unit (these were typically either Combat Controllers or Weather Team personnel.) Once they go back to the "big air force" they would have to take the patch off in most cases. Not only that, but even if that airman, sailor or marine were to join the Army, Army Reserves or Army National Guard later on, they would not be authorized the patch because they weren't in the army for that deployment.

 

Then you have the bizarre situation of the USMC patches which are authorized for the Army, but not for the Marines. Here's a scenario that should rattle anyone's brain: Let's say you have two service members, one of them is in the Army, the other in the Marines. They both serve in Iraq in 2004, both of them are in a task force that is under the command of the 2nd Marine Division (I don't know if the 2nd MarDiv was in Iraq in 2005, that's just an example.)

 

Following that deployment, the Soldier can now wear the 2nd Marine Division patch on his right sleeve as his "combat patch." The Marine, of course, cannot because Marines don't wear patches/SSI's on their uniforms.

 

But let's say that Marine leaves active duty and joins the National Guard, where he serves right alongside that same Soldier who was in Iraq with him. Even though they're both now in the Army, the former Marine cannot wear the 2nd Marine Division patch, even though the Soldier can.

 

[Bob Hudson]

God bless for her service, but that sure is a lot of decorations for someone with no combat service.

[Martinjmpr]

God bless for her service, but that sure is a lot of decorations for someone with no combat service.

 

She has combat service. Note what appears to be the SWASM (top full row, far right) with a star indicating service in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. She also has an overseas bar (Hershey bar) on her right sleeve indicating 6 months or less service in a combat zone.

[Martinjmpr]

 

She has combat service. Note what appears to be the SWASM (top full row, far right) with a star indicating service in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. She also has an overseas bar (Hershey bar) on her right sleeve indicating 6 months or less service in a combat zone.

 

Sorry, my mistake. SECOND full row, far right.

[Bob Hudson]

 

She has combat service. Note what appears to be the SWASM (top full row, far right) with a star indicating service in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. She also has an overseas bar (Hershey bar) on her right sleeve indicating 6 months or less service in a combat zone.

 

Okay - and in these modern combat zones with IED's and truck bombs, it's all the front lines.

[gpw_42]

 

She has combat service. Note what appears to be the SWASM (top full row, far right) with a star indicating service in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. She also has an overseas bar (Hershey bar) on her right sleeve indicating 6 months or less service in a combat zone.

 

She's wearing a ribbon for the ICM (Iraq Campaign Medal), rather than the SWASM: https://awards.navy.mil/awards/webapp01.nsf/%28vwAwardsDisp%29/AW-10052085N3LN?OpenDocument

 

Fully concur about her combat service.

 

 

Steve

[atb]

A person has to have been in the Army (not attached from another service) to wear a so-called "combat patch." If an Airman is attached to an Army unit and is given an honorary right arm SSI, that's his to keep, but he or she cannot wear it if they subsequently join the Army.

[32sbct]

 

Volunteer: As far as I know the "award" of a combat patch (FWTS-SSI) is purely a ceremonial/morale thing and in no way an "official" award of anything.

 

I have to disagree. A SSI-FWTS is not a ceremonial or morale thing. If done properly the unit S1 prepares a memorandum which is signed by the commander specifying which Soldiers are authorized which SSI- FWTS. There are specific regulations around the rules associated with the award. Just like everything else that goes on the uniform, there should be a piece of paper authorizing that award, badge, tab, patch, etc. I know the rules were pretty loose early on in Iraq and Afghanistan but the rules are pretty specific in AR 670-1. When we were awarded the 2nd ID SSI-FWTS we were given permanent orders specifying the award of that patch by the 2nd ID Brigade we supported.

[jdamaso111]

I have a memo for record of the fwts-ssi im authorised to wear.

[Martinjmpr]

I have to disagree. A SSI-FWTS is not a ceremonial or morale thing. If done properly the unit S1 prepares a memorandum which is signed by the commander specifying which Soldiers are authorized which SSI- FWTS. There are specific regulations around the rules associated with the award.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to situation where a combat patch is "awarded" to someone in another service.

 

A SSI-FWTS "award" to someone in the USAF, USMC or Navy would have no meaning to a sailor, airman or marine since those services don't wear shoulder patches.

 

Just like everything else that goes on the uniform, there should be a piece of paper authorizing that award, badge, tab, patch, etc. I know the rules were pretty loose early on in Iraq and Afghanistan but the rules are pretty specific in AR 670-1. When we were awarded the 2nd ID SSI-FWTS we were given permanent orders specifying the award of that patch by the 2nd ID Brigade we supported.

 

 

Unless the award AR has changed since I retired in 2005 there are no "official orders" for a combat patch. Yes, I know some units issued memoranda or cheesy certificates (when I was deployed to Kuwait with the WYARNG's 115th FA Bde they issued a made-up "certificate" for the combat patch but it was not in any way official or sanctioned by the Army.)

 

To put it another way, even though some units issued orders or memorandums for combat patches, the fact that somebody doesn't have an award or memorandum doesn't mean they don't rate a patch.

[atb]

The wear of a SSI-FWTS requires no orders, memo, certificate, etc. The notation of qualifying service on an individual's personnel record is the proof. It has always (as far as I have seen) been like that. Any paperwork the unit decides to prepare is just for show.

[VolunteerArmoury]

Sorry if I got this off topic from females wearing male uniforms. Perhaps I should've began another topic regarding the combat patches. That was just cursory on my part. I was attached & detached too many times in OIF & OND & ended up within at I said "a patch of the day" but only a few provided orders apart from the attachment orders or other documentations. Most said the attachment orders was sufficient. Sorry again about the diversion.

 

I'm not much of a collector of modern stuff or surplus but collector of older items & of more of an accumulator of modern stuff with future hopes however it's be pretty nice to add a male uniform with substantiated provenance to a female.